Yesterday, we took a good hard look at several Scriptural proofs that I think settles the entire Rapture debate once and for all. At least, for me it does (for now anyway).
I admit, there are still a few "issues" I have with my "Escape" position (formerly known as the "Pre-Trib" perspective) as others have made some excellent points in the Comments Section, but I'm not going to get into addressing my thoughts on all of that for another few days or so. So, please stay tuned for upcoming commentaries if that discussion is of more interest to you.
I've continued to catch up on all my reading over at Brother D's Christian Apostasy blog since then. As promised, I wanted to report back with additional findings that I think might interest all of you. I can't thank him enough for his illuminating insights, and his method of explaining things always strikes a chord with me.
It's on his shoulder I stand and come to you now with this next installment. Hopefully, this will add more clarification to this subject and pick up right where we left off.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THE "ESCAPE" AGAIN
I want to be clear. When I write about Jesus' command that we are to "pray to be counted worthy to escape such things" I'm by no means insinuating that this is a words-based, salvation issue. In fact, this has nothing to do with one's salvation, but more about their belief regarding a literal Rapture event. Thanks to those of you who asked me to clarify.
Let's stay with this for a moment though. Obviously, Jesus gives us a clear command to "pray that we're counted worthy to escape" so it must be important. While this has absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation and where we'll spend eternity when our physical bodies die, what if it has EVERYTHING to do with whether or not we'll be Raptured or have to endure some of the Tribulation? More on this in a bit.
We talked about the key to understanding yesterday, which is "knowledge of the Holy One" (Proverbs 9:10). If a person doesn't really know the true Son of God, they will never, ever "get" what the Bible is saying because He is the key to it all. In fact, He is it all. Jesus equals the Word of God, and the Word of God equals Jesus. No Jesus, no key, no understanding. We must know Him today, and be known by Him today or we are in bad shape.
So, where do we find evidence of this "escape" in the Bible? Furthermore, what can we learn about it as it relates to these end times and the coming Daniel's 70th Week (Tribulation + Great Tribulation = Final 7 Years)?
Luke 21:36 - - "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (emphasis mine)
Revelation 3:10 - - "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (emphasis mine)
Matthew 24:39-44 - - "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." (emphasis mine)
Luke 17:34-37 - - "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." (emphasis mine)
What? Wherever the body is? The eagles gathered together? This has to make some kind of sense for the Lord to have written it, right? Perhaps this will help us:
Revelation 4:1 - - "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." (emphasis mine)
Notice the specific wording used above in Luke 17:37 - - "eagles," "air," "gathered together." Let those words sink in for a moment. "Eagles"...you know, things that fly in the AIR? Being "gathered together"? A door open in Heaven in Revelation 4? "Come up here?" What about this "body"(evoking a dead body). Where is it?
Revelation 5:6-7 - - "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne." (emphasis mine)
Ok, so we have a "slain Lamb" (a "body") to deal with here. Where is it? It's in Heaven. Who is the "slain Lamb" spoken of? It's none other than Jesus Christ Himself. Again, remember, "Gathering together" and "in the air."
1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 - - "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (emphasis mine)
It does'nt stop there! Also, notice the words "the body." "Wherever the body is..." What body? The slain body? Whose slain body? Christ's slain body! What is Christ's body? THE CHURCH! So, wherever the body is (wherever the church is), there will "those in flight/in the air/eagles" be "gathered together." Where is "the body, also known as the church" in Revelation 5? It's in Heaven in the midst of the throne.
There are redeemed men in Heaven with crowns on. Where do crowns come from? From the rewards given at the Judgement Seat of Christ, right? Is the Lord going to have multiple Judgement Seats? If not, then the Judgement Seat for crowns/rewards had to happen at or before Revelaion 5 I think.
Lately, I keep saying that I'm prepared for all sceanrios when it comes to the Rapture, but my faith and hope is today in a Pre-Trib view of the whole thing. Most people in this world will be going through the Tribulation so when you hear people arguing that we will be going through it (and that they believe they will), don't debate them because they probably will go through it. I'm beginning to think that that doesn't mean that you have to. What the Lord said will happen, will happen. If He said we should "pray to be counted worthy of an escape from all," then there absolutely - - positively - - is an escape from all coming. We will look back someday and say, "Hey look! It happened just like He said it would! We escaped from all, just like Noah and Lot did!"
I encourage you to take the Lord at His word today. The things coming on this world will shock and terrify mankind. The shock will come from the fact that those who are alive now have never seen anything like the coming horrors. Perhaps some of the few surviving people who were in Hitler's concentration camps will be able to relate, but few others will. The Fourth Reich is coming. It will be history repeating itself except this time it will be on steroids. This time, devils and demons will incarnate and walk the Earth openly (see previous articles on the coming "Black Awakening"). That's what I firmly believe.
What I want you to see here is the contrast between the relative peace we have today, and the Hell on Earth tomorrow. For many people, they will have their "aha, I get it" moment way too late. The Lord said its going to be bad. Very bad. Mankind will be made rarer than pure gold He said. That means lots and lots and lots of death. Death will come to most in all different manners and forms. You don't have to be part of that. We have a promise that it's possible to be kept, to escape all. We have gems hidden in plain sight throughout the Bible for those who have eyes to see them, like:
Zephaniah 2:3 - - "Seek the LORD, All you humble of the earth Who have carried out His ordinances; Seek righteousness, seek humility. Perhaps you will be hidden In the day of the LORD'S anger." (emphasis mine)
"Hidden in the day of the Lord's anger." Do you see that? "Perhaps" because unless you "pray that you may be counted worthy to escape" you won't "be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger."
Here's another clue of where some will be on the day of the Lord:
Revelation 1:10 - - "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and...I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord, when I heard a loud voice behind me like a trumpet..." (emphasis mine)
So, on the "day of the Lord" John was "in the Spirit" when he heard a "trumpet." Trumpet, Day of the Lord, in the Spirit. It's all there for us hidden in plain sight.
The worst is yet to come. A day of wrath and vengeance for those who are not pure of heart, those who do not obey, those with deceit in their spirit, but not for you. If you are "in Christ" then stay there. He paid the price already for your mess-ups, but you need to stay under His protection. Do what He tells you to do. He tells you to "pray that you may be counted worthy of the escape." If you are "in Christ" then I pray this prayer for you, with you, every day. You, my brothers and sisters, are in my prayers. Please keep me and my family in yours. Grace and peace.
THE COMING DAY OF NOAH
This leads me to the coming day of Noah. We have a day coming soon that will be EXACTLY like it was for Noah. Think about that. The Lord specifically tells us that a day is coming that will be EXACTLY like the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17; Matthew 24). What happened in the days of Noah?
Genesis 7:1 - - "And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation." (emphasis mine)
Genesis 7:4-5 - - "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him." (emphasis mine)
Verse 1 says what? "Come into the Ark." Verse 4 says "in seven more days I will bring the rain." People like to argue, "Hey, but it didn't rain for 7 more days!" Who cares? What happened first? Noah was told to come into the Ark - - FIRST. Once in the Ark, who cares when it rained? I don't mean to be bluntly insensitive, but it's just a natural thought I have.
What do we know about Noah's experience? He did what the Lord commanded (he was obedient), and he was physically separated/segragated from the wrath and judgement. You need to read the specific words of how he was separated:
Genesis 7:17 - - "And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth." (emphasis mine)
So, we enter the Ark BEFORE the "7 days" and BEFORE the "40 days and nights of rain," and we are lifted up above the Earth. Arguing about the 7 and 40 days seems irrelevant. The relevant fact to our escape is that Noah entered first. Before. Everything has to fit. We can't force pieces into the puzzle, right?
Luke 21:36 tells us there is an escape from all that's coming. Did Noah escape all? Yes, he did. Did Lot escape all? Yes, he did. Will we (if counted worthy) escape all? Yes, we will. I am absolutely 100% positive that we will look back on history, after the Lord does what He does and say "Yep, exactly, precisely like it happened to Noah and Lot. Yep, we did 'escape all' exactly as the Lord said it would happen." The details are in the Lord's hands.
To really understand how this is going to work, transport your mind back in time, into Noah's or Lot's body, and take with you your understanding of every detail of how their experience worked out for them. That's what is coming. We are going to have a "Noah and Lot experience." It will be EXACTLY like that. The Lord said it, not me.
Many are those who would explain new details into the Noah and Lot experience. Read both stories. I see nothing - - absolutely nothing - - about them being persecuted, executed, chased/hunted down by wicked men, treading water, putting out fires on their clothes from brimstone saying "whoa, that was close!" Nada, not even remotely close. Before a single act of judgement even starts, the righteous have to be removed, that seems to be the fact of the matter to me. Could I be wrong? Sure. Am I open to that possibility? Of course I am. I just keep thinking though, Who said that? Look below. Also, guess what word I see written five times down there? You guessed it - - "escape."
Genesis 19:15-22 - - "And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD: Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast showed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live. And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken. Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar." (emphasis mine)
"I cannot do anything till thou be come thither?" Yes, no destruction, not a lick of it, until Lot was out. And escape, escape, escape, escape, escape. Gosh, where have we read that before?
Luke 21:36 - - "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (emphasis mine)
The indisputable facts of the Noah and Lot stories were that Noah went into the Ark first (Genesis 7:1), and then he waited 7 days (Genesis 7:4), and 40 days for men to be judged. Lot went out of Sodom before a single fiery ember was allowed to fall.
Here's something else thats very important to take note of. What was Noah and Lot's situation before Noah entered the Ark, and before Lot left Sodom? Do we read anything about them suffering the judgements of sword, famine, death and Hell on Earth (i.e. plagues, beasts of the Earth hunting them down, etc.?). Well, that's what's coming for this world. If Noah and Lot didn't face those things, how can we not infer that neither will we especially in light of what Jesus told us and what Scripture plainly says? Yes, I realize that the world was a depraved place in their time (i.e. raping going on in the streets let's say), but that's still not on par with what we're talking about here I don't think.
The Book of Ezekiel clearly states that the sword and famine are signature judgements by the Lord our God. We looked at that in yesterday's piece on this subject. Those exact same judgements are what open the Tribulation period in the First Seal to the Fifth Seal.
The Book of Matthew tells us that the world was eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage right up to the day Noah entered the Ark. So, you should expect to eat, drink, marry and give in marriage right up to the day we enter the Ark so to speak. If the Holy Spirit wanted Matthew to tell us, "Be ready to dodge the sword, famine, beasts, the Antichrist, death and Hell on Earth up until the day you enter the Ark..." he could have, but he didn't, right?
The Lord's Word will be exalted. It will be vindicated. So, we can give ourselves a 100% guarantee that right up to the day we enter our "Ark," this is what we will see:
Luke 17:28-30 - - "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." (emphasis mine)
The Lord told Noah "come in here," and our Lord Jesus will tell us "come up here." Noah entered the Ark through an open door, then the Lord closed the door behind Noah. We will enter Heaven through an open door (Revelation 4) and the Lord will close it behind us:
Matthew 25:10-13 - - "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." (emphasis mine)
Our Noah/Lot experience is ahead of us and approaching quickly. If you want to understand the experience, just put yourselves in Noah's and/or Lot's shoes. With your mind and spirit, enter their experience and understand it the way it happened to them because that's what's coming - - EXACTLY like that.
Physical removal from the physical location of judgement and wrath is what happened. This time, the wrath and judgement will be worldwide, so where do you think we'll go? A door open in Heaven give you any clue?
Many will be left behind for various reasons. We know that. Already, their hearts tell them they will be in the Tribulation even though they don't have to be. That's right. I'm seriously beginning to believe that while our salvation is certainly secure, the timing of when we are actually "caught up" is determined by our belief and faith in the Rapture.
Thus, maybe that's why there's so much confusion on this topic. Maybe that's why so many Christians have opposing views about the Rapture let alone the timing of such a monumental event. Perhaps there are more than just one Rapture event for believers, and that the one that you are "in line for" is directly determined by what you personally believe about it all. Why not? I'll expand more upon this line of thinking in the days ahead.
Unfortunately, if this is the case, there's very little time left for us to change our position and to pray that we are counted worthy to escape such things.
Luke 21:36 - - "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
Matthew Henry had this to say about Luke 21:29-38: "Christ tells his disciples to observe the signs of the times, which they might judge by. He cautions them against being secure and sensual. It will be a terror and a destruction to them. Here see what should be our aim, that we may be accounted worthy to escape all those things; that when the judgements of God are abroad, we may not be in the common calamity, or it may not be that to us which it is to others."
MORE FACTS FROM THE ACCOUNT OF THE FLOOD
Here are some key words I'd like to highlight for you this morning: "For as in the days that were before the flood" (Matthew 24:38). Let the words "days before the flood" sink in for a moment.
What about the days before the Flood? What is Jesus telling us about these days before the Flood? People were eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Yea, so? People will be doing the EXACT same things. Up until when? Until the day that Noah entered into the Ark. Whoa! So, it appears that the day Noah entered the Ark was a "transformative" day for the world, wouldn't you say? Why? What happened the day that Noah entered the Ark? They knew not until the Flood came and took them all away. Read it again below:
Matthew 24:36-44 - - "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
You know what I find amazing? I find it amazing that in spite of all the bad news, economic problems, etc. that for many people, eating, drinking and marrying/giving in marriage continues as it always has (perhaps minus a couple steak dinners per week in lieu of burgers). What does the Noah account in Matthew tell us? It tells us something very specific about "the coming of the Son of Man."
"The coming of the Son of Man" has very specific "word markers" attached to it. Read them again. Words are used for a reason. How does Jesus paint the word picture for us surrounding this "coming of the Son of Man?" Here it is:
> days of Noah
> coming of the Son of man
> days that were before the flood
> eating, drinking, marriage/giving in marriage
> until the day Noah entered the ark
> they knew not
> flood took them all away
> one taken, the other left
> watch
> ye know not the hour
> thief
> be ye also ready
> hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh
I won't even get into the "one taken, the other left" argument right now, but suffice it to say that we know an escape from all is coming. That's seems to me to be a fact. We know that some will be kept from the hour of trial to come on all the Earth. We know that the Seals are judgements and they are the first things listed in the Book of Revelation as our God's dealing with this wicked world.
The escape, being kept, Noah entering the Ark, Lot leaving Sodom - - they are all pieces of the end time puzzle, and they all fit somewhere. Many are the "teachers" today who will argue you, until blue in the face, that the pieces to this puzzle our Lord gives us fit nowhere. They'd rather just throw those pieces out. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I'm starting to feel about it, and the way I'm starting to see this entire debate.
The end time puzzle is a big one, and different people will fit into this puzzle in different ways. Some will escape, some will be sealed as part of the Lamb's 144,000, some will be martyred saints, some will be kept by our God's power in the desert for 3+ years, many will die from sword, famine, beasts, pestilence. One size does not fit all here. So, when we hear people telling us that what they see ahead is Tribulation for themselves and others, just realize that to a hammer everything looks like a nail. We are close enough to the Time of Jacob's Trouble that people's hearts are being prepared for what lays ahead of them. Again, one size does not fit all.
One other important comment. Holding fast to one particular Rapture perspective over another does not make anyone any "more" or "less" of a Christian. I don't see that as being the case at all. It also doesn't make anyone "right" or "wrong" per se. The way I see it, I have a theory as to why there is so much confusion amongst Christians when it comes to the Rapture. I will write about this extensively soon with PLENTY of Scriptural evidence too.
If you are living and breathing, and reading this now, you still have a chance to pray that you may be counted worthy of the escape that is coming (Luke 21:36). Knowledge of the Holy One is understanding, so, get to know Him today. If you already know Him, get to know him better. Some people will spend eternity never even scratching the surface of the depth and breadth of the wonders of our God because He is that magnificent.
Time is short so be watching and ready. The things going on around us today are final touches on preparation for the 7 years of Hell on Earth. Those 7 years do not have to be for you. If you are pure in heart, with no deceit in your spirit, if you are "in Christ," and you strive to please Him each and every day, what need have you for wrath and judgement? In Christ, there is no longer condemnation for you.
Noah and Lot walked as right standing men in the eyes of our God, and they were spared from the judgements of their day. Our God tells us that those who walk before Him today in that same way will be spared from the judgements coming soon. Our God does not lie. If He said there's an escape from all, then there is an escape from all. If He said the coming of the Son of Man will be EXACTLY like the days of Noah and Lot, it will be EXACTLY like the days of Noah and Lot. You can count on it. I am looking for it. I am counting on it.
MARANATHA!!!
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26 Comments:
What an awesome word and just what my spirit (and mind) so needed to hear. You are right! What does it matter when the Rapture takes place? Just KNOWING that there IS a plan of escape for us is ALL we need to know. Wow! All I can seem to say is AMEN and AMEN!!!!
Angel
Jred,
I was just thinking the same thing today about maybe there are raptured saints and saints that will be here for the tribulation. Weird. I know what you mean that while some expect to be here, some do not. I'll be interested in hearing more on this.
"I cannot do anything till thou be come thither." one of our favorite verses:)
In two books by David Lowe at the web site of www.earthquakeresurrection.com David makes a great case for why the "last trump" is actually the voice of God (maybe "come up here", etc.) and not an angel sounding a trumpet like the one in Rev that post tribbers cite.
A few things would solve all the confusion here. Actually, the first would do it.
1. Understanding when the "Day of the Lord" is.
With all due respect, if we put less stock in what men claim (Brother D) and more stock in what the Scriptures say, I think it will be very clear that the Day of the Lord is the FINAL judgement of God against the wicked of the earth. Not the first. I don't know how anyone could get that it is the event that kicks off the Tribulation from reading the Bible. Don't listen to the just-so stories of men. What does the Bible say?
2. About "just as it was in the days of Noah". How was it?
It was the FINAL judgment against the wicked of the earth by water. The next judgment will be by fire, and it will not be the first of the judgments, it will be the last. The seals, the trumpets and the bowls all lead up to this final event. A plain reading of the Scriptures will show this.
3. The logic about "God has never done this to His people before" just does not play. First, nothing like the Tribulation has ever happened before. It is a unique event. Secondly, God does allow His church to be persecuted by wicked men. A brief glimpse at the history of the firt 2-3 centuries of the church will make that crystal clear. All but one of the Apostles were killed for their faith (why should we get off easy?) Another example is the nation of Israel. Did they ever suffer plagues at the Hand of God. You bet. Many times. The "God would not do that to us" mentality is misguided. He will test and refine His people. And He will weed out the pretenders.
Look, I really wish the Pre-Trib rapture was the correct view. It is certainly preferable. However, I can not hold to that view because it does not stand up to Scriptural scrutiny near as well as the Post-Trib view.
If the Day of the Lord is not the event that kicks off the Tribulation, then "Brother D" is wrong (and he is).
There will not be two sets of raptured saints because the rapture is in conjunction with the resurrection of the dead in Christ. If there were two raptures, there would have to be two resurrections. There is only one of each.
Why would the "Last Trump" be the "First" Event that kicks off the Tribulation? (during which there are several more trumpets sounded.) Do you see how illogical this all is? There is too much you have to ignore or imagine in there to believe this stuff.
The "Last Trump" is the Last Trump, period. That is when the rapture occurs, and it is toward the end, not at the beginning.
Luke 21:36 - - "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
I believe there is one rapture, and it is dependent on salvation alone. None of us are worthy. Praying to be worthy would lead you to the cross where you would become so, through the blood of Jesus Christ alone. Abiding in Christ and separating from the world is a testiment to your salvation. The blessing of intimacy is peace, joy, the fruits of the spirit. Daily guidance by the one we love and serve.
Two thoughts, John6 Christ talks about raising them up at the last day with connection to Passover , so either last day of unleavened bread or last day of counting the omer to Pentacost and a closing of the age of grace. 2nd thought in the new test. alot is said of the leadership of end time church leadership almost all not good matt 24 keeper of the house = leadership church Gos or H.S. the stealer of the bride to split the house =church the bride is waiting but the leadership barely acknowledges a sudden return.Matt. 6/13 wow not into temptation[hour of trial] but deliver us from the evil one antichrist Christ said He wouldnt leave until the end of the AGE church age of grace , main body church given unto hands of antichrist. Rev. bride goes though open door age of grace then its shut . left behind cannot get in until they wash in the blood of the lamb as mayrtrs and are raised at trumpets. Daniel did not go through the fiery trial .He was at the Kings gate , He was given rulership over all . not much or some as the next level down were. just as three servants in Matt25 14-30 had their levels, but after the trial.
Here is an interesting site that gives proof of early believers in pretribulationism. It does not in any way prove it, but does show that this is not an entirely new idea as some suggest. Just wanted to put it up if anyone was interested.
http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918
Greetings Harpazo. I'm glad you brought that up.
I have looked over the main page at the site you recommended. I know this is going to come as a surprise to you, but I'm gonna have to tell you that Rev. Keith Sherlin is a bit off base.
It just so happens that I have actually read most of the writings from the men on this list:
Papias (60-130)
Clement of Rome (90-100)
The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150)
Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)
Barnabas (100)
The Didache (100-160)
Justin Martyr (110-165)
The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)
Irenaeus (120-202)
Tertullian (145-220)
Hippolytus (185-236)
Cyprian (200-250)
Lactantius (260-330)
… and I can honestly say that there is no good reason to think they were “pre-tribbers”. I want you to notice a few things. The Reverend gives us this nice list here, but only provides ONE quote from the Shepherd of Hermas as his evidence. Wonder why? It would take weeks to read what is written and he only has one quote. VERY weak evidence.
The Reverend makes this statements: “It is clear that the early church immediately following the apostles held to a premillennial view of Christ's coming to earth.”
This is true. The millennial reign does not start until Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation and Judges the wicked of the earth. Then He has the Wedding Feast (Tabernacles) with his people which ushers in the Millennial reign of Jesus. He makes no Pre-trib point here.
“These theologians embraced two key truths concerning Christ's return to earth. The idea of an any moment return…”
Not entirely true. In fact, many of these Early Church Fathers taught that the Lord would not return until after 6000 years of human history had been completed. So, no, the Lord could not just return at any time…
Here is the evidence with actual quotes provided at the bottom of the page:
http://www.biblestudying.net/millennium.html
“…and a coming of Christ to rule as the political and spiritual king over the world were advocated by many of the earliest theologians.
This is true, but makes no case for Pre-tribulationalism.
Now, please notice that the bulk of his quotes come from after 1000 AD. That is for good reason. A whole lot of heresy had creeped into the church by then. If he can not make his case that the church in the first three centuries (prior to the council of Nicea) then pre-tribulationalism is not an orthodox view (as he claims it is) – and it is not.
Don’t listen to the teachings of men. Here.. go to the source and see if the Reverend’s claims have any merit.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html
You can find the writings of the orthodox early church fathers in volumes 1 through 4. Enjoy!
PS, I am going to read up on the Shepherd of Hermas and see if he is right about that...
I've just said a prayer that I and my family will be counted worthy to escape all of the things that are coming. I've never fully believed in the pre-trib rapture but I asked God to help me believe it if it is His will. Whenever it comes may we all be ready.
Perhaps the fear of missing the rapture and also of not being worthy to escape will actually cause you to miss it. We will be so concerned that we aren't in that special place with the Lord, that we never enjoy our salvation or rest in His love. This whole discourse can be dangerous in a sense that it brings us to the mentality that we somehow have to work to earn this escape or maybe we aren't spiritual enough. Just some food for thought!
Bravo! Beautifully and simply stated. The simple, obvious facts you present can't be disputed; just as the plan of salvation, the simplicity confounds the wise!
Harpazo, I'm not sure I would be clear enough about my stance if I said "pre-wrath" or "post-wrath", so I will try to explain. I believe the Lord starts executing the judgments detailed in Revelation at the half way point or so of the Tribulation, 3 1/2 years in when the beast/anti-christ declares himself to be God in the Temple in Jerusalem, and sets up the abomination of desolation. I believe the true church will be protected/preserved through these judgements of God, but not necessarily from the anti-christ's persecution. At the end of the Tribulation, The Lord will appear in the clouds and call up His people who are alive, and the dead in Christ in the resurrection. We will be quickly changed and a relatively short time later we will descend with Jesus and the angels and He will execute His final Judgment of this age against wickedness on the earth destroying with fire on the Day of the Lord. This culminating event of God's wrath we will escape from if we truly belong to Him. After He judges the earth, we will celebrate the wedding feast with Jesus in Jerusalem, and He will begin His 1000 year reign on the earth.
So, I'm pre-wrath in regard to the Day of Judgment or Day of the Lord, but post wrath in that I believe the church will be here through the other plagues sent by God during the latter half of the Tribulation up to that Day.
Hope that clarifies my position.
I will address the church in Philadelphia soon...
Let us be simply, quietly obedient. Jesus said pray to be worthy to escape, Let us just do it. We need not question it at all. Jesus said it, it must be important for us. God's heart and care is always towards his people.
We don't have to understand the meaning or the hows. We can be sure He would not have said it if it didn't mean anything.
Over all, in all, under all the information flying around, we have the assurity that God has the plan, that he has given it to men, but that our understandings are in development. He's got it covered, dear ones.
Our Hope is in rescue. We have evidence there is one. The Word cannot return void. His word is creation. It is enablement. We have only to take his hand, become as a child, look up, take his hand, smile with confidence at his wonderful face, let his provisions be whatever and whenever they will be.
I can just imagine some of you, on the 'way up' arguing that, what, this wasn't supposed to happen this way! You make me laugh.
If, as some of you insist, that we will not be rescued, then we will yet praise Him from under the 100 pound hail stones, or as our head goes into the bucket. Either way, Lord, we look to you.
As I'm thinking through all this lately, I keep thinking of those 7 letters to the churches right before the door opens in Heaven. I think there are all those kinds of Christians in every group of Christians, and God may think (i.e., the Laodiceans) may need some refining before Heaven, like they may need to decide if they are really in love with him or not. They profess Christ but may not be marriage material, so to speak. Big Loud professors of religion, but no fruits of the Spirit.
As for JRed, I love your heart, Man, I love Christ in and through you loud and clear! You are a dear brother, an eternal brother and friend in Christ.
Harpazo,
I have taken a look at the Shepherd of Hermas to try to determine whether the author (who is unknown) was clearly teaching that the church would be removed prior to the Tribulation.
I think the Reverend’s quote was from the following chapter (or book):
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.ii.ii.iv.html
When I read this, I have to admit that there is a bit of a “the church will not have to endure the tribulation” tone to it, but it is not exactly conclusive. There are portions of it that can be taken as arguing against removal from the tribulation as well, though I would say a slightly better case could be make FOR a pre-trib rapture… BUT..
I went back in the book and found this:
“Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints; but to the heathen, repentance will be possible even to the last day. You will tell, therefore, those who preside over the Church, to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive in full the promises with great glory. Stand stedfast, therefore, ye who work righteousness, and doubt not, that your passage may be with the holy angels. Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life. For the Lord hath sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life in despair, for even now these are to deny Him in the days that are coming. To those who denied in earlier times, God became gracious, on account of His exceeding tender mercy.”
Excerpted from:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.ii.ii.ii.html
This pretty clearly teaches that we will be here during “the great tribulation”.
So, at best, the Shepherd of Hermas is inconclusive, though I think that passage clarifies what the author meant in the other.
Hello again Harpazo,
On the church of Philadelphia from a post-trib view:
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
While that verse does seem to have pre-trib implications, one certainly can not adduce this as definitive proof of pre-trib rapture teaching, and here are a few reasons why…
Who was this letter written to, and are they alive now? No. Therefore, they have indeed been kept from the upcoming “hour of temptation”.
Let’s assume that it is written to us. It could be that the “hour of temptation” is not 7 years, or 3 ½ years, but a much shorter period of time at the end, which I do believe we will be kept from. (I explained that earlier.)
Also is says that “thou hast kept the word of my patience (or endurance)” - so what was endured if we escape before everything happens?
I don’t believe this is an open and shut case for pre-tribulationalism. Let’s take a look at some of the other letters…
Written to the church of Smyrna
Revelation 2:9-10
“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”
Now, if we use the argument that this was written only to the actual people who were alive at the time, then we have to throw out this as evidence for us being here during the tribulation, but then we must do the same for the verse pertaining to the Philadelphian church.
If we say it is written for us also, it is strong evidence that we may have to endure some serious persecution and tribulation even in the face of death.
Since pretty much the entire book of revelation seems to be focused on the 7 years of Tribulation, I think it is same to assume that the letters do have an application to us today.
So, let’s look at another verse:
To the church at Pergamos he says: “Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.” (Rev. 2:16)
When does the Lord come quickly to fight with the “sword of His mouth”. If you read Revelation 19, you will see that it is at the culminating event of His judgment – the Day of the Lord at the end of the Tribulation.
To the church of Thyatira in Rev 2:22 – “Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Here we have those in the church will be in “great tribulation” unless they repent. The others are told to “hold fast till I come”. (Vs 25)
When will that be? Vs 26 – “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations”
It will be at the end, and the end is not 7 years from the end, nor is it 3 ½ years from the end…
To Sardis He says: “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” Rev. 3:3
Who does He come upon as a thief. The faithful who are ready and watching, or those who are not ready and are not watching? The “thief” is not about “imminence”. It is about “spiritual preparedness”
Hear also the Word to Laodicea – “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.” Look up the words “rebuke” and “chasten” in the Greek. Does not sound like “escapism” to me.
Lastly, since these are written to us, read every account to every church and you will find they ALL say – “to him who overcomes, I will…”
My question is – if this is written to the generation that comes up on the Tribulation, but we are removed before it all starts, just what exactly are we “overcoming”? Yes, it is the trials and testings and persecutions of the tribulation itself. Will we remain faithful, or will we deny our LORD.
Excellent question…
In reference to the days of Noah, Sue Bradley has a new article titled Meta Tauta available at Raiders News Network. Yikes! One point made, fallen angels will be "released" and used by God to bring His wrath upon the earth. There is a difference between wrath/judgement by God and persecution by the enemy/the world.The church has not been appointed unto WRATH, persecution, absoluetly, but not wrath. Jesus bore the wrath and judgement for our sin upon the cross.If, we had to endure the wrath of God, we would be the only ones in church history that the judgement at the cross was not completed for.It certainly sounds like what may be coming on the earth is nothing like anything that has happened before! Maranatha!
Quote: From Anonymous
"Bravo! Beautifully and simply stated. The simple, obvious facts you present can't be disputed; just as the plan of salvation, the simplicity confounds the wise!"
++++++++++
Actually, I think many of these "obvious facts" have been disputed quite effectively. However, there has been Zero refutation of the disputations. You are in luck my friend. No one has stolen your thunder. Please explain how I have been confounded... Preferably using Scripture.
jred
I have been silence about this for several weeks now, but you just opened the door!
I will try my best to use your material to show you how wrong you are!
amatter of fact I'm begining to think you are spiritualy dislexic?
Luke 21:29-38 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives. And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.
no where in these verses does it say cuaght up or flown away like a bird. it says you will escape if you are found worthy! escape means to avoid disaster.... in this case with GODS saving hand!
Revelation 3:7-13 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
no where does it mention rapture, amatter of fact in the whole bible!
so stop leading GODS children astray!
what it does say is if you keep GODS word with patience GOD will keep you from the temptation that shall come upon all the world.....
and that temptation is already here in the form of the easy way out rapture cult! which you seem to have fallen for hook line and sinker!
Matthew 24:32-44 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
mat 24.39 clearly states who was taken away!!!!! and it was not GODS people. it was all the evil elements that were left as the ark rose in the oncoming flood.
they were not flown away or raptuerd. they remained here on earth to repopulate and fulfill GODS will!!!!
Luke 17:32-37 Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
no rapture here!
what it says is, remember lots wife she was taken becase she looked back to the evil elements of soddem & ghamorha.
and it says those who try to save thier life by flying away, which is attempting to reach the kingdom another way! will lose thier life!!
again the ones taken are the evil elements. and the body is repesentative of a spiritually dead body. the eagles are unclean birds of pray waiting to devore the dead body, circling over head.
I believe that is enough for now!
there is no rapture!!! that is satans little lie to decieve GODS
children. step back and see the forest through the trees. it is all there seek and you shall find knock and the doors will be opened.
may GOD pull the blinders off your eyes!!!
john
Great article, and fascinating commentaries! I guess everyone has a different opinion based on what they've researched and been led to believe. My personal (humble) opinion is that we're going to be taken out/harvested/Raptured after the seven seals, but before the seven bowl/vial judgments and before the mark of the beast. (So in a sense, I guess you could say I'm "mid-trib.") You stated correctly that passage that says: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
But in Revelation, that "hour" explained:
Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the HOUR of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."
A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia. (Revelation 1:20)
There is only one harvest -- I don't think that Jesus would be harvesting twice, do you? Why then, is the harvest AFTER the seven seals? And then, immediately after the harvest, another angel gathers all the rest of the people for the "winepress" of God. Meaning, God's wrath. It actually says "God's wrath" in the passage above. It is describes very violently, as such: "They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia."
Immediately after that is the continuation of God's winepress/wrath, which is the seven plagues/vials/bowls. (Some theologists think that these are different, but I believe that they are all one and the same.)
Anyway, long story short is this: I believe that we'll be around for the first half of the tribulation. We'll see the emergence of the Anti-Christ. We'll see the seven seals as well as the seven trumpets. That's why Jesus continuously said "many will fall away" and "do not be deceived" and "he who endures to the end will be saved." Then comes the great Harvest, the Rapture, all of the things the parables described.
Revelation says: "But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
Just as he announced to his servants the prophets.
I guess only time will tell, but again... for all the talk and the parables about the harvest, I simply don't believe that there is more than one. And if you don't believe that there is more than one either, than why does it occur half-way through the trib? And if you DO think there is more than one harvest, then why isn't it described like the other one? Especially when the first one would be considerably larger and more important???
~Maria
Jubilee on Earth
I agree with Bob on this one! I think the "Rapture" or "catching away" is dependent on our own amount of FAITH. God does a LOT of things for us by the level of OUR faith, maybe the catching away is for only those who TURLY believe in it. As for John, I understand what you are trying to say here but so far, you are the only one that I have found that always speaks DOOM & GLOOM. If you would lisen to some of Perry Stones teachings on the Jewish Wedding, he show us that the church is LIFTED ABOVE THE EARTH during the wrath just like Noah & his family were LIFTED ABOVE the earth during the flood. There will be too many people to just put in an arch this time so God has to bring them all somewhere! Why not Heaven, and while we (chosen ones) are there, we might as well get ready to be HIS BRIDE!!!! I am CHOOSING to have FAITH in this and I will continue to always pray to be worthy of being "CHOSEN" to escape all the things that must come upon the earth, especially since that IS what He tells us to do. We certainly can't go wrong by doing what we are told! God LOVES His children and IF they have enough FAITH IN HIM, then I beleive He WILL HIDE US AWAY! I guess we will all see you John, AFTER the tribulation is over, when you finally get there! I will pray that you will be able to endure it.
Angel
Unworthy 1,
Don't you think like Jeff was saying today that life in general has many persections, trials, and tribulations so to speak? We all have an opportunity at any time to turn our back on the Lord in times of despair, sickness, financial or marital trouble, death of a loved one, etc. People are put to death for their faith in other parts of the world. Also the persecutions of the RCC against the "heretics", the inquisitions. I believe (and I may be wrong) that the letters to the churches are directed to all church age believers. We all do have to overcome. But not all have to go through the Tribulation. Most of the church age are dead in Christ right now. We all have had chances to go back to serve the god of this world. I think it is very commendable how passionate you are in your case, but I think that maybe you may be twising scripture to some degree to fit your view (we are all guilty of it). Maybe you could cut Jeff some slack and consider that he may be on to something. If you are fully convinced in your stance, that is great. We should all be so assured of our faith. But I am still searching and looking for the truth. As far as the early church writings I mentioned, I usually like to stay away from extra-biblical texts as they are not inspired and have given rise to much bad theology. I was just trying to point out that we didn't "dream this up". In no way am I trying to prove that early church 'fathers' were pretribulational. Very lively debate here:)
Harpazo, yes. Life does have its ups and downs, but, the church in the industrialized and well to do countries for the most part has not really had their faith tested. I mean really tested. Especially here in America. I really think that if there was intense persecution for those who profess to follow Jesus Christ, over half the so called church here would bail. I think that day is coming. It is the apostasy mentioned in the Scripture.
As for twisting the Scripture - I despise the practice, and so does the LORD. If I am intentionally twisting the Scriptures to make it say what I want it to say, then I deserve everything I have coming to me, because we have been warned against such practices. I assure you that I do not intentionally twist Scripture. I always try to take the context into consideration, and that determines my position. A plain reading of the Scripture. I think I have adequately demonstrated the fact that the other side here does not always take the context into consideration and often ignores other related Scriptures that clarify the issue.
Am I fully convinced. Yes. However, like you, I am constantly striving for truth. So, If someone can adequately demonstrate from Scripture that the Pre-Trib position is correct (and that should also be able to be demonstrated to be the historical orthodox church view) then I would gladly change my positon on the subject. Believe me, the pre-trib position is the preferable one. I just don't see it as the more Scriptural one.
Don't dismiss the writings of the early church fathers out of hand. Especially those written in the first 2 - 3 centuries. Think about it. Jesus passed His teachings down to the disciples. The disciples fully understood His teachings and they passed them down to the churches who passed them down to the next generation.
When we read their writings, and they all pretty much agree on one side of an issue that we are divided over, we would do well to listen to what they had to say about it. They knew.
No, their writings are not necessarily Scripture (although some of it was considered to be by many of the early Christians), I have found that when you read what they wrote, it almost always matches up with what the Scriptures say. Believe me, you can learn A LOT from the ECF's.
Should we completely avoid extra-biblical texts because some people have used them to form bad theology. I don't think so. There is plenty of bad theology from those who only use Scripture. The point is to weigh what the extra-biblical texts say against the Scripture to determine if it is reliable.
For me, reading the writings of the early church fathers has clarified alot of the muddied waters of modern Christianity. They were not so confused back then. There were not a dozen different opinions about various subjects. You can actually get rid of a lot of bad theology by knowing what the first few generations of Christians taught and believed.
As for cutting Jeff slack - I love my brother with all my heart. This is not about me against Jeff. This is about gaining a better understanding of the Scriptures and a search for truth. If Jeff is right (and I would prefer that he is) then I will be the first in line to admit I was wrong (right after get out of the huge line that forms to hug the Lord... OK, I did make that up - may not be Scriptural ;-).
Blessings Harpazo!
And Jeff, I hope there are no hard feelings.
Unworthy 1,
Well stated. We know that no matter how much scripture volleyball is played here, there is never going to be complete agreement across the board. (2000 years of church history can attest to that!) We all know we are saved, we are all looking for Jesus to come that's why we are here. May we be at peace with the Lord and with each other as we wait. Blessings to you:)
If "The Church" also known as the body of Christ goes through the Tribulation then all those that have died in Christ(as being part of the body) would have to be resurected to go through the tribulation as "The Church" That is one of the reasons why it is a pre-tribulation rapture. That is also the reason the word escape in the Greek means out of and not through "ek".
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