I'm sorry, but no one will be able to convince me (not after the week I've had where I've literally seen God work in my life in such a bold an intimate way) that this is merely a coincidence.
I have much respect for Jack Kinsella because it was his online ministry that played an integral role in helping to lead me to a decision for Jesus Christ a few years back. Today, I learned that he wrote about the Rapture (right on time!), and provided me with a nice bookend to our series here over the past couple of weeks.
Please read Jack Kinsella's latest column published today at The Omega Letter:
The Satanic Verses
In Defense of the Faith
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
Jack Kinsella
I read recently that the doctrine of a pre-tribulation Rapture is not only unbiblical, it is probably satanic.
I was blessed to have the opportunity to work with Hal Lindsey on his book, "Vanished" in 1997. It was one of the most intense learning experiences of my career -- (and also the most fun I ever had while getting paid for it.)
In order to work on "Vanished" it was incumbent upon me to become an expert in all four views of the Rapture.
Hal's advice was to forget everything I already knew about the Rapture and then study each possible view separately with an eye toward convincing myself that the view I was currently examining was the correct one.
If I couldn't convince myself that it was correct, Hal said, take note of those things that stood in my way. The end result was a book that presented all four possible views as fairly as possible.
My own conclusion was that of the four possible views, the one that had the least conflict with Scripture was the most probable one. And the view most harmonious with the Scripture was the pre-Tribulation Rapture.
The idea that a pre-Trib Rapure is probably satanic in origin demands an examination of the 'origin' of the opposing views.
The post trib perspective is the most widely taught and from that fact, rather than any Scriptural support, draws most of its credibility, in much the same way that arguing 'the pretribulation view is a product of the 1800's" is used to argue against pre-trib.
Protestant Christianity is a product of the Reformation Movement of mid-15th century. Traditional Protestant denominations arose as different Reformers chose different parts of Catholic dogma to reject as being unscriptural.
The Rapture was a problem for the Vatican since it teaches that sinners are only partially washed by the Blood of Christ and have to undergo further purification in Purgatory.
There can be no Rapture. Therefore, there is no real 2nd Coming and no Millennial Kingdom to follow. The Catholic Encyclopedia explains:
"The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church. This was the view of the Protestant Reformers and is still the most common view among traditional Protestants, though not among most of the newer Evangelical and Fundamentalist groups."
New doesn't mean 'wrong' when 'old' refers to the Church during the Dark Ages. They were called the "Dark Ages" because the Bible was repressed by the Vatican. That's what the term refers to -- the period between the fall of Rome and the Reformation.
The Scriptures say that at the 2nd Coming, the Lord returns with ten thousands OF His saints, not FOR them. The origin of the post Trib view doesn't inspire much confidence when compared with the Scriptures.
Paul's 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians addressed a pre-trib Rapture directly.
Chapter 2 begins with a discussion of the coming of the Lord and 'our gathering together unto Him" and then rebukes them for believing the Day of Christ is 'at hand'.
Warning them to "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come" (until certain preparatory events take place) "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
First, Paul warns of a great apostasy, out of which a man could credibly claim the title of Messiah. Paul draws the messianic imagery in the next verse:
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Then Paul rebukes them again.
"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" (2nd Thessalonians 2:1-5)
Now, let's try a totally different perspective on for size. Read through that chapter and see if you can understand it in some other sense.
What else could "our gathering together unto Him" mean?
What event called "the Day of Christ" being "at hand" could Paul have been referring?
What other 'man of sin' could Paul logically have been referencing, if not the antichrist?
Stay with me, here. There is no gratuitous or unnecessary passage of Scripture. It ALL means something. What else COULD this passage mean? Nobody wants to be wrong about something as important as eternity.
No honest Christian would want to teach a doctrine of satanic origin. And certainly, no Christian would want to learn it.
Is Paul talking about a Rapture event here? Logic and context leave no room for any other interpretation.
Is Paul talking about it in the context of the Tribulation? Clearly. Paul says it has to happen BEFORE the man of sin is revealed.
"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."
This verse is NOT that obscure or complicated. The Thessalonians were well aware of the antichrist -- they thought it was Nero. Paul was explaining that Nero can't be the antichrist because if he was, they wouldn't be there.
(Remember, they thought they had been left behind -- that's why Paul was writing to them in the first place.)
Paul is reminding the 1st-century Christians who lived at Thessalonika what is holding back the man of sin until the time is right. ("Sure, Nero could be the antichrist, the world is sinful enough to deserve judgment, but not yet.")
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now letteth will let, until He be taken out of the way."
Who is "he"? It can't be referring to the antichrist. The phrase 'let' means 'to occupy' in Old English.
We still use it to some degree today. When one offers a "room to let" it is an offer to occupy a place in an established dwelling.
So, He who now occupies will occupy until He be taken out of the way.
So, Paul says that while there is sin enough for the antichrist to prosper, the time is not right, and it won't be right as long as He who occupies continues to occupy. Is there any possible alternative understanding of that verse's intent or meaning?
Without dancing around the Bible with seemingly contradictory verses aimed at proving something one way or the other, but just at face value, is there ANY other way to interpret just these verses presented?
To continue, after He who occupies is taken out of the way, Paul writes, "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."
I always capitalize pronouns that refer to the Lord out of respect -- in this case, I didn't. The translators of the KJV capitalized "Wicked" as a personal pronoun, since there is only one figure in Scripture to whom it can refer -- the literal antichrist who is personally indwelt by Satan during the Tribulation.
Now, the Occupier occupies me. He began His occupation when I trusted Christ. Christ promised me that the Holy Spirit would comfort and guide me until He comes.
Paul says the antichrist cannot be revealed until after the Occupier ceases to occupy.
So it teaches me that just when I need the Holy Spirit's strength and comfort the most, He is going to abandon me to face the worst time of spiritual trial the world has ever known on my own.
Or it teaches me that the Rapture must precede the revelation of the antichrist.
Can you read it literally and make it come out differently?
"Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." ( Revelation 3:10)
I am regularly accused of teaching some kind of satanic doctrine that doesn't prepare the Church for the coming tribulation period. Particularly by those who believe we're already in the tribulation and that the antichrist has already been revealed.
They argue that the promise to keep the Church from God's wrath really means God will preserve it through His wrath. So the Church should prepare itself to withstand the coming of the antichrist.
But I can't find anywhere in Scripture that directs me to do that, or anything from Scripture that would teach me how.
The Scriptures only tell me how to come to Christ, how to lead others to Christ, and how to trust in Christ. What it teaches about the Tribulation comes from two perspectives.
The first is the one presented by Paul: "Don't be fooled. When the real thing approaches, here's how you'll know. . . you won't be here."
The Tribulation is unique in human history. In centuries past, there have been persecutions and pogroms against God's people. The pogroms against the Jews was the product of wicked men and the devil conspiring against God's Chosen People.
The persecutions against Christians was the product of wicked men and the devil conspiring against God's Son. In both cases, and down throughout human history, the perpetrators were wicked men and the devil and the targets were the chosen of God.
The Tribulation is the time of God's wrath -- God is the perpetrator of the judgments. The targets are wicked men and the devil.
Jesus said of the Tribulation, "as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." (Luke 21:35) If it comes upon the whole earth, it means everybody. It rains on the wicked and the righteous alike.
The post-trib argument is the traditional argument, not the Scriptural one. It fails to acknowledge the purpose of the Tribulation Period. The purpose of the Tribulation is the pouring out of God's Wrath upon ALL those that "dwell upon the earth."
"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth." (Revelation 11:10)
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8)
Four times does the Scripture repeat the phrase, "they that dwell upon the earth." In the first, it is a promise to those who "kept the Word of My patience" (trusted Jesus) that they will be "kept from" God's Wrath.
It is also a statement of purpose. The purpose was "to try them that "dwell upon the earth."
The second and third instances refer to those who will rejoice and make merry at the death of the Two Witnesses. The final reference to those 'that dwell upon the earth' identifies them as those whose names are not written in the Book of Life.
It does not seem that complicated to me. If your name is written in the Book of Life, then you can't be numbered among those who dwell upon the earth when God is pouring out His wrath.
The Church Age has a purpose. It is to present Christ to a lost world and to afford that lost world every opportunity to accept the promise of Pardon secured for them at the Cross. It is to afford each of us the opportunity to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ instead of trusting in our own.
The Tribulation has a purpose. It is to pour out the wrath of God on the earth and to judge it according to its own righteousness. Mix the two and neither has a purpose.
Paul says the antichrist can't be revealed until the Occupier is taken out of the way. I just can't read it any other way.
From the Omega Letter Daily Intelligence Digest, Volume 14, Issue 16
Very timely, isn't it?
We are hearing warnings ring out from every corner of the city walls today. The watchmen are crying out, but who is listening?
What's required of you is not difficult. His yoke is easy, and His burden is light. We are called to a SIMPLE FAITH in Jesus Christ - - a childlike faith.
Childlike = Simple. Children trust simply and completely.
Do not doubt, do not waver. Figure it out today. What do you believe? Whatever it is, the time has come for you to SELL OUT to it! Get off the fence! Pick a side in this cosmic battle and sell out to it. The lukewarm will be spit out and trampled by both sides of the fight.
Again, I'm listening to other possible interpretations and views, but I'm still unmoved at this point. Currently, my faith is in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
I keep writing this, but what are the odds of all this "convergence" we're experiencing lately? It's as if it's everywhere we look!
What We're Praying/Talking About
May 1, 2009
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21 Comments:
I stand unmoved with you. My eyes are on the coming of Christ (and a going to Him in the air), not on the counterfeit.
Keep bringing what you find to this blog. This is your project and no one else has a right to demand otherwise. I consider the ability to post a comment to be a gift and not an expectation.
JRed, I truly no longer believe in coincidence where the Lord is concerned.
This morning I was emailing an unsaved friend about the possibility of the 'swine flu' being the impetus for martial law in the US as truckers stop trucking and stores run out of their 3-day supply of food. after sending the email, I began looking at my daily sites and lo and behold they (including your site) were all talking about martial law in connection with this 'pandemic'.
There is no coincidence we are being prepared for what is coming. Do I believe in the Rapture? Yes, yes I do. And I believe it is soon. But I also think that our Lord is going to issue a firm rebuke to the lukewarm in His church in the US.
and the oddest thing? I've absolutely no fear of this or anything that may come.
even so, come Lord Jesus come.
God bless.
Any serious study into the New World Order and the Occult, Satanism, Black Magic, New Age teachings, World view on UFO's will show people that without a doubt, the evil one is preparing the world in a way to explain away the rapture of the church. Every single one of these with the exception of black magic Satanism, has a cover story for their moral compass to explain the rapture. And the Black Magic Satanist admit the rapture is coming and are actually waiting for it to "unleash and gain more power" after it.
Anyone who does not believe in the Rapture needs to get back into the Torah and understand ancient Hebrew Customs ordained by Yahweh. When a man asked a woman to marry him, he would go away to his father's house to build on a extension for them to abode in.
After he had finished this extension and gotten his Father's approval, he would then come for his bride. A Horn would be blown for the bride as he was in Route, but she did not know the day or the hour when he would arrive. To complete the ceremony she had to be ready at his coming, and if she was not the wedding could be called off.
When the Groom came for his bride, he would then take her to his Father's house and they would commence the marriage and have a 7 day marriage supper and wedding feast.
After this 7 days (or 7 year tribulation) the groom would then present his bride to the world.
And that my friends is why we are called the bride of Christ. We were actually saved under bridal law also which I will not go into.
A Servant of Yahshua
Rather than do a point by point refutation of Mr. Kinsella's analysis of 2 Thessalonians, I will supply the Scriptural evidence that (I believe) will show that he has interpreted incorrectly.
The rapture is unquestionably associated with the "last trumpet" Here are the trumpet verses. After reading these, please explain how all this happens BEFORE the tribulation starts...
Rapture and the Last Trumpet
1 Thessalonians 3:13
“May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.”
Chapter 4 vs 13-18 (Lord descends, trumpet, archangel, dead raised, alive caught
up to clouds, with the Lord forever)
“We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
I Corinthians 15:50-55 (Trumpet, dead are raised, imperishable, immortal, not all sleep)
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”
2 Thessalonians Chapters 1 & 2
Chapter 1 vs 8-10
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Chapter 2 vs 1-4
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Matthew 24:15 (midpoint of 7 year tribulation)
Matthew 24:29-31 (after the days of distress, trumpet call, gather elect)
This passage incorporates most or all of the key phrases related to the “rapture” and the coming of the Lord…(sun, moon darkened, coming on the clouds, trumpet, gathering of the elect)
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel-let the reader understand-then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains…"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Revelation 10:7 – (The seventh angel sounds trumpet – the mystery of God accomplished)
“But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
Revelation 11:15-19 (Trumpet – world belongs to Christ!, time to judge wicked and reward the righteous)
“The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great- and for destroying those who destroy the earth." Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.”
The last trumpet, the rapture, the Day of the Lord, the sun and moon being darkened - these are all events that happen AFTER the tribulation.
Hopefully, I will have some time to address some of the weaknesses in Mr. Kinsella's analysis of Scripture.
JRed, you had better look into this one...
http://watcher.boardzero.com/the-watcher-forum-f3/project-bluebeam-reference-in-transformers-rotf-t700.html
Something to keep in mind...
jred
seems to me you mis interpited the whole thing
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall NOT come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
what paul says here is that day shall not come untill after the falling away , and after the anti christs reign, at the seventh trump which is after the tribulation!!!! why can you not see this? it is plan as day!
he that now letteth is the arc angel michel who is holding satan in heaven in chains
2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
unless you die before hand, we will all live through the tribulation!
just like shadrrac, messhac & abedneggo in the firey furnace.
and just like the isrealites leaving egypt on foot!
and just like lot levening soddom!
and just like noah in his ark
we will all remain here on earth with the protection of GODS HOLY SPIRIT to guide us through the times of tribulation! then when it is all said and done, when the seventh trump sounds at the end of this earth age! JESUS CHRIST will come down from the clouds and we will be seperated from our human
body and return to our spirit body
at that very instant!
it is not a rapture, it is the shedding of the old earthen vesel.
and it will not happen untill the end when GOD says IT IS FINISHED!!!
this the best I can interprit it to you, that is why I suggested you buy JAMES LOYDS book THE RECONING at christian media network .com
he has the talent and the HOLY SPIRIT to show you the proof that you seek.
there is nothing more I can do for you, IF you want to find the truth you will expirence JAMES LOYD and his work it is up to you!!! I have done my duty as a remnant of GOD,
GOD nudge them twords the truth, if it is in your will!!
john
Absolutely, I am looking up right now and waiting for Jesus to take us out of here. I believe a pre-tribulation rapture is revealed even in stories and scriptures of the so-called "Old" Testament. Please allow me to elaborate a bit. There's the story of Enoch who walked with God, and God took him; before the judgement of the flood. While Noah and his family might be a figure of God's elect and chosen people, the Jews, whom God will shelter through the judgement to come. While Enoch might prefigure the raptured church. Also, there's the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego who were cast into a burning fiery furnace for refusing to bow down and worship Nebuchadnezar's giant golden idol. This story is astounding to me for all that it might be revealing for us. One of the biggest things is, where is Daniel?? Certainly he wouldn't have bowed down before this image to worship it had he been there. He's absent and we are never told where he is. These three young men are sentenced to death for refusing to worship a false image. Hmmm, very interesting as it seems to prefigure the sentence (death) meted out in the future against those who refuse to worship the image of the beast. We're told of a fourth figure who joins these young men in the furnace and I believe this figure is Christ. I also believe the young men prefigure the chosen of God who will be prtected by Him through the fiery trial of the Tribulation Period just as I believe Daniel, who is absent without explanation, represents or prefigures the raptured church. There's more; there's so much more. God's word is an endless treasure indeed! One observation more before ending; the Jews have always seen prophecy as pattern. There's nothing new under the sun. I think they've had it right in seeing prophecy this way. Maybe if we try to see it their way sometimes, we won't get tangled up in so many debates. Just a thought and thank you for letting me share.
JRed,
I think the safest thing to do is be prepared. If we are ready to experience the worst this world has ever seen, and then God pulls us out, then great. But all through History, God has watched His people being killed, torchered, persecuted, etc. over and over and over again. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Amen
Hi JRed,
Thanks heaps for your site and keep it up.
Some thoughts for you to consider:
1) Do you believe that "The day of the Lord" in 2Thess2:2 is the Rapture?
2) Do you believe that "He who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way" in 2Thess2:7 is the Rapture?
If so, this is not possible. 2Thess2:3 states:
a) Apostasy comes first
b) Man of lawlessness being revealed comes second (or maybe equal first but second seems more likely)
c) Day of the Lord comes third.
(i.e. Lawlessness man revealed before "Rapture")
2Thess2:7-8 states:
a) Mystery of lawlessness comes first
b) Removal of the restrainer comes second
c) Lawlessness one revealed comes third
(i.e. Lawlessness man revealed after "Rapture")
Logically, based on the above, the "Day of the Lord" and the "removal of the restrainer" cannot be the same event.
Again, thanks for your site. It is the first site I look to daily to see what you have to say about end times events.
Jesus bless.
Jasan
JRed,
First of all I want to say I enjoy reading your site. I just found it a few weeks ago and always find your articles well written and informative.
But I disagree with Jack Kinsella's interpretation of 2 Thess 2. The rapture in that chapter is not the "restrainer" - whom he falsely assumes is the Holy Spirit (if anything I agree with the Anonymous who said it's the archangel Michael (see Dan 12:1, Rev 12:6)) - being removed, but it is "our gathering unto Him" in verse 1, which Matthew 24 explicitly says occurs "after the tribulation of those days."
I was always taught pre-trib and that's what I believed up until last year, but after studying it for over a year I have turned to post-trib/pre-wrath.
One of the questions I could not answer as a "pre-tribber" was: How come the early church fathers did not teach pre-trib? I have read the writings of early church fathers like Irenaeus, Hippolytus, etc and none of them taught pre-trib. In fact, Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John, said that the trib is "necessary for believers" in order to be made white and "fitted for the royal banquet."
Another question I could not answer was: Why do "pre-tribbers" talk about interpreting Scripture literally then resort to allegorizing to prove pre-trib? I heard a preacher give a series on Revelation. For the first 2 parts he talked about how we should interpret it literally, then when he got to actually interpreting it in part 3, he resorted to allegory saying that the first 3 chapters "represented" the church age, then when God tells John to "Come up here" in 4:1, that represents the rapture. Doesn't sound like interpreting it literally to me!
And if pre-trib is true and the "restrainer" being "taken out of the way" at the rapture is the Holy Spirit, then who are the saints we see the Antichrist persecuting in Dan 7:21,25? If they are saved during the trib, how are they saved without the Holy Spirit?
If I may also recommend a book, please read The Blessed Hope by George Eldon Ladd.
May the Holy Spirit lead and guide all of us into all Truth that we not be deceived.
Jimmy
To whom it may concern, April 28th, 2009
It was five weeks ago today I received a vision from the Lord that really shook me up and made me really concerned about what is coming especially against the churches of America that call themselves Christians. The vision was so real and God continued to replay it over and over in my head. It was as if I was watching a scene from movie over and over again. Once I realized I was not hallucinating and I was not seeing a scene from some movie in my past; I immediately began to enquire of the Lord what I was seeing and He began to reveal to me what I was seeing in the spiritual realm. Now today, as I am writing this, the news stations are broadcasting the potential outbreak of this swine flu. I have felt repeatedly today the Lord was confirming to me with this swine flu the vision He gave me a little over a month ago. I have shared my vision with many people and it has shaken many of them up as well. I am going to share this vision and the revelation God gave me in as much detail as I can. I hope this will be wake up call for some people.
In the beginning of my vision I saw this great city. It was as if God had given me a stadium view of this great city. I noticed that the city was dimly lit and it was late in the evening. Most of the people seemed to be in bed for the evening and it was as if the entire city, for the most part, was asleep. The city was surrounded by clear and open fields and father away you could see the outline of a forest that also appeared to surround the city. There where no automobiles or any type of transportation apparent anywhere throughout the city. There where also no street lights and it did not appear as if the city had any type of electricity in the city at all. The only light that could be discerned within the city was coming from a few houses here and there that where spread throughout the city. The light was coming from the houses windows and appeared as if it was caused by candle light or lantern, but for the most part almost all of the homes within the city had no light coming from them and where completely dark. I also noticed that it was a full moon and clear skies. The moon was also giving light to the city so that one could make out the roof lines and shapes of the homes that had no light coming from them at all. It was a very quiet evening and you could hear the crickets chirping and frog croaking off in the distance. As I continued to view this sleepy little city, I began to hear a voice calling out from within the city very faintly at first. This voice grew louder as it seemed the voice was getting closer to me. I the individual got closer to me, I could here him calling out . Awake! The bridegroom is coming. He repeated this over and over and his voice grew fainter again as if the individual was moving away from me, but at that moment it became apparent to me that this person was going up and down the streets of this city and that is why it would grow louder and then quieter. As I looked closer at the city I noticed occasionally the light within one of the lit up homes would get brighter here and there. I did not notice any additional lights coming on in the darkened homes. As I listened to the man calling, the crickets chirping, and the frogs croaking, I heard a old city clock start a pre chime to the upcoming hour which is commonly heard from old grandfather clocks. As the clock went through its little jingle I started to hear a slight buzz that was growing louder very quickly. As I heard the first gong from the clock I saw a huge mass of blackness approaching the city. It surrounded the city and was moving incredibly fast. By the time the clock sounded the next gong the buzzing noise had become a roar that sounded like millions and millions of angry hornets. It was so loud it sounded like being right under huge jet that was coming in for a landing. The blackness had reached the city walls. I also noticed that as the first gong sounded you could hear ten or twenty voices start screaming. Light your lamps. Oh my God! Light your lamps. You could hear complete fear and terror in their voices. By the second gong, the ten or twenty voices screaming had grown to hundreds of screaming, fearful voices saying Light you lamps over and over again. What I noticed about the darkness that had reached the city walls how amazingly black the darkness was. It was totally pitch black and there was no light escaping it whatsoever. The darkness was completely blacking out everything it passed over from the trees, moon, and stars. The way the blackness sounded and the way it was approaching reminded me of a atomic bomb exploding backwards. After the second gong the vision would immediately stop and start over from the beginning as if someone had taken a remote control and was re-winding and starting over. This happened every time the clock sounded for the second time.
I earnestly began to inquire from the Lord what am I seeing. Lord what is this and why am I seeing it over and over. The Lord began to reveal to me the vision step by step. The Lord told me the city represented the people or children of God. The city was His church. The voice I heard moving throughout the city was the Spirit of Elijah telling the people to repent and wake up. Clean your soiled garments and clothe yourself in garments of righteousness because the bridegroom is coming. The light that I was seeing coming from a few of the homes spread throughout the city was the light from the wise virgins who had not let their lamps go out. The homes, where there was no light at all, represented the foolish virgins that had fallen asleep spiritually and had allowed their garments to be stolen from them. The voices that where screaming throughout the city where the panicked voices of some of the hirelings and false prophets who where realizing they had been deceived by Satan and where realizing it might be too late and they where about to be destroyed by the thief that was coming in front of the bridegroom. The blackness that was approaching the city was the demon locust army spoken about in the book of Joel and Revelation 9 starting in verse one; Then the fifth angel sounded and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. (2) He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went out from the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. (3) Then out of the smoke came locust upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. (4) they were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. (5) and they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and heir torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. (6) And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them. It goes on through verse twelve describing these locust.
Again the Lord told me these locust where the blackness that was coming against the city. The Lord told me the second gong represented where we were today as it relates to current events. The clock still has to sound ten more time and then it will be 12 midnight signifying the day of the Lord. I was shaken to realize that the locust or demons where coming against the people of God and they where coming so fast it was already going to be too late for the foolish virgins who had let their lights go out.
In conclusion I would like to address the seriousness of current events. God is a little hacked off about the status of his harlot church that has chosen to walk according to their own flesh and fit God into their lives only as it relates to their own desires. For the most part God’s people have chosen to follow after doctrines of demons that say you can disobey God and not suffer eternal death. They have chosen to seek out false prophets that have tickled their ears proclaiming peace, peace you shall not fall by the sword. You don’t have to die to your fleshly desires. You can serve God and the desires of your heart. God’s people have prostituted and whored themselves out to the world and it’s lustful cravings. Judgment starts with the house of God and God is about to destroy the harlot church and addresses this in Revelation 18. This is going to happen prior to the destruction of the world. The harlot church is not going to be raptured out of anything as the false prophets had led you to believe. That is a total lie and comes straight from Satan himself. The rapture is not biblical, but the day of the Lord sure is. The false prophets have told the harlots peace, peace, but God is about to divorce the harlot and let her be destroyed by the powers of darkness. This is all going to happen before the destruction of the world. God’s church has counseled rebellion and willful disobedience to the Lord. Jesus was very clear that in order to participate in His life we must first participate in his death which is putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Here is the saddest part of all. Anger, coveting, idolatry, and pride is probably going to be enough to send 99% of church goers in America straight to hell. You can not take anger to heaven. You can not take your pride to heaven. You can not take your reputation to heaven. You can not take your idols to heaven. You can not take covetous heart to heaven. Christians have been told they can. All you have to do is walk an aisle say a little prayer and ask Jesus into your heart, get water baptized and wait for the rapture because you have eternal life. You never deal with the demonic strongholds and get delivered. You never learn to be led by the spirit and put to death deeds of the flesh. You never bear fruit for the Kingdom which is to make disciples of Jesus, lay hands on the sick and heal them, cast out devils. No you would rather hang on to your broad path gospel that tickles your ears and it is going taking you straight to hell. Do not think for a moment that God has not pronounced judgment against America. God is about to pour out His wrath on this nation that has followed the example the church has set and has whored and prostituted itself and committed acts of immorality with nations all over the world. We have tolerated other nations gods and idols and have turned our back completely on God. We took the ten commandments out of school. We took prayer out of the school. We took creation out of the schools and replaced it with evolution. We have tolerated the murder of innocent children though abortion. We have tolerated homosexuality. We have made gods out of our sports teams and movie stars. We have made idols out of our music stars. We have coveted money, reputations, power, and our lust. We have elected men after our own hearts instead of God’s. We wonder why our economy is collapsing. We have not seen anything yet. God is about to remove or destroy all other gods and idols that have enslaved His people. Remember slaves do not get to stay in the house for ever, but rather get put out of the house. Slaves are not sons and if you are enslaved by sin then you’re not a son. This swine flu is the beginning of demonic attack that will further cripple this nation and our health, but still that is still only the beginning. There are much worse things to come. In the last ten years that I have been involved around or in the deliverance ministry, we have found that most and possibly all sickness is brought on and caused by demonic spirits operating in a individuals life due to rebellion to God or willful disobedience to God brought on themselves by the sins of their ancestors or because of their owns sins. We have seen that
When true repentance occurs and there is a turning away from their sin it then cancels the right that demon causing sickness has to operate in their lives. You can then get delivered from that demon causing the sickness and then Jesus starts the healing process in your life. We have seen people healed of cancer, blindness, diabetes, blood disorders, arthritis, leukemia, birth defects, and many other sicknesses ,but it all starts with true repentance and then deliverance; for which healing and deliverance are the same thing. I see Christians all over America, Mexico, and Guatemala that are enslaved by anger and lust. Let me ask you this; how on earth are you ever going to deal with lust and anger when you have a demon inside of you promoting lust and anger? I will also tell you this; if you do not deal with lust or anger in this lifetime you will go to hell. It does not matter how many times you have walked an aisle or have been dunked in water. Anyway the only way anybody is going to survive the tribulations and trials that re already starting to come is repentance and a complete submission to the will and sanctifying work in the spirit. Most of you are going to need to get delivered from demonic strongholds operating in your life so you can completely die to the desires of your flesh and put yourself on the cross. There is time coming very soon were if your lamp is not already lit then it is going to be too late for you. For some of you it is already too late. The sword has been polished like lightning and it is about to flash forth in destruction.
I am truly sorry that Jack uses such strong words.....surely he is entitled to believe what he wants to believe, and others have that same entitlement....as you keep saying it is not a "Salvation issue" but to call it satanic...my... my...
I have noticed that a lot of people who do not believe in the pre-trib, try to be very forcefull about their stance...don't know why!When the time comes, and Jesus calls us, whether we believe in pre- or post, we will all go! IF we believe in Jesus Christ as our saviour!
What if both theories are correct? I mean those who believe in the pre-trib rapture take that trip. and those who don't stay for the whole seven years. God has provided examples of both. Those who believe in the pretrib believe just as strongly as those who believe in a post or mid. It seems both sides can scriptrually(sp) back up their view. If both are full of the Holy Spirit. Maybe, the Spirit is preparing each for there roll in his kingdom.
Food for thought.
Jodi
THE BEST RAPTURE LOCATER
Guess what. If you can figure out when the "sudden destruction" of wicked persons takes place in I Thess. 5:3, and when "death" is ended in I Cor. 15:54, you will know where to place the rapture on your prophecy chart because those passages talk about the "times and seasons" (and the "when" and "then" ) of the rapture! Neat, huh?
..wow, Anonymous, 12...
breathless I read your warning; I understood the lines before you mentioned the interpretation - so clear is the allegory
After reading this,
I should tell what I saw last Tueday ( and of what I wasn't sure to tell or not ) ,
- I hoovered over a battlefield; it was a dark realm, and the ground was barely visible; but when I looked more closely, I saw it were bones and smell and dead bodies everywhere, as far I could destinguish
Then I realized, I was also embedded into that field of dead, or at least the part untill my waist was,
but I was not dead ( yet ). I asked, plead for His help, because I had no assumption whatever that I could free myself to get saved from the demonlords who were responsible for the slaughter.
- almost immediately after I asked Him, I heared a terrible gravelly voice shouting in rage "..that Son, álways that ** Son !!.. "
Sure there must ve been others, who were alive - but the point was, I guess, that there are not só many left, to can prevent the darkness from descending...and the few, who still are alive ( though not by own strength ) are under heavy siege, now
.. this is Jeff I guess, what you ment in your last two columns, is it ? Also on other forums I see that frictions appear..
I realized, that I slowly loose interest in discussions about "Which Rapture".. I honestly feel like one on that battlefield - I have no power no more but hold on and wait,
day by day
Love for all you fighters,
Lone
Anonymous at 12:11 am.
Assuming you're familiar with the book Earthquake Resurrection, I think one possibility, at least the one I think most about, is that once everyone says "peace and safety" (i.e., covenant with many is signed?), then sudden destruction comes (via the enormous earthquake in the sixth seal) like travails upon a woman giving birth. If you're familiar with the book by David Lowe called Earthquake Resurrection, you'll see a great scripturally-supported case for why the rapture will be accompanied by a worldwide earthquake. Here's a hint, every occurrence in the bible where someone is resurrected from a mortal to an "immortal" body is accompanied by an earthquake.
This is a pre-wrath view, but can also be considered a pre-trib view depending on whether one defines the tribulation as being three and a half or seven years.
FWIW, dwell is Greek 2730 and seems to only relate to those dwelling on the earth.
A different dwell, 'encamp' 4637 is used of those encamping in the heavens. it is also used in the context of tabernacling, i.e. and He will tent with us.
Hi Look up Fellowship,
I love reading all the comments and always take them all in. I used to be a pre trib beleiver. I really wanted to belive in it and that is what I was taught for years. May of my family members still are to this day. It always makes for a good debate. I think the most important thing is we are all Christians, ans should show true brotherly love towards each other. For me I can't explain away this scripture.
1Corinthanians
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your F59 rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, F60 where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Please offer comments on verse 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I wish pre trib to be true, but from my reading of the bible my heart tells me we are here till the end. The last trump!!!
I agree with all that Unworthy1 had to say and he has the scripture to back it up. God Bless you!
I speak from my heart as God has reveled to me that this time will be a time of testing our faith. When aur faith is tested we grow in faith. I have been through a lot of difficult times in my life, and I praise God for each and every one of them. In those time we truly lean on the Lord and cry out to our God for Comfort.It is such an intimate moment with God and an amazing test of our faith.
Who could of use could say if we were faced with getting our head cut off or denying God would choose death!
People I lived through two armmed robberies. My boss was shot in front of me. We were told to turn and face the wall, as they held guns to our backs. I will say I wasn't saved at that time in my life. When Christian are faced with real fear many will fall.
I praise God that I am today almost twenty years later. I do pray that I am found worthy to escape the things that are comming. But I am not 100% sure that the escape is the rapture.....
Each of us is on our personal jourey the Holy Spirit shows us the truth in our own time.
To Anoyomus with the vision. I do argee with much of what you said. God knows are heart and our faith. He knows if we will betray him, as he did in the past, just read scripture below.
Mt 26:34
Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mt 26:75 -
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Mr 14:30
And Jesus saith unto him,Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mr 14:72
And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him,Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.
Lu 22:34
And he said,I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
Lu 22:61
And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him,Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Joh 13:38
Jesus answered him,Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
God Bless, all my Brother and Sisters in Christ...........
The Seventh Trumpet occurs AFTER the Tribulation.
When a “rapture” is referred to many refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The events referenced in those two verses occur at the CONCLUSION of the "tribulation" under the beasts of Revelation chapter 13.
The church (1 Cor.10:32 - Jesus' living body, Col.1:24) will face the tribulation under the beasts of Revelation chapter 13.
(Matt.24:9, Dan.7:21, Dan.7:25, Dan.8:24, Re.12:17, Re.13:7, Re.13:15, Re.16:6, Re.17:6, Dan.12:6-7)
Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy
Mr. Kinsella states:
"The post trib perspective is the most widely taught and from that fact, rather than any Scriptural support, draws most of its credibility, in much the same way that arguing 'the pretribulation view is a product of the 1800's" is used to argue against pre-trib."
I would like to know how he comes to this conclusion. I want to see the data.
While it may be true that post trib is most widely taught, I'm a bit doubtful. One thing is certain though, it is not the most popular view.
There are dozens of examples of pre-tribism that have been popularized in the mainstream, a la "Left Behind" and several other lesser known productions (like Tribulation). I can't think of one post-trib example. Not one.
There is no question that the pre-trib view is the PREFERABLE view. If God gave us a choice, we would all choose the pre-trib option. I think that is one of the main reasons so many are eager to embrace it.
I have also studied the Scripture and can say just as confidently as Mr. Kinsella that the post-trib view is the most harmonious with the totality of Scripture.
In fact, Mr. Kinsella butchers 2 Thessalonians to make his point.
He states:
“The Scriptures say that at the 2nd Coming, the Lord returns with ten thousands OF His saints, not FOR them. The origin of the post Trib view doesn't inspire much confidence when compared with the Scriptures.”
This is a misleading argument, since all rapture views agree that the Lord will gather up His elect in the clouds to Himself PROIR to His descending to the earth with His saints. The real issue is WHEN this gathering up takes place.
From 1 Thessalonians 3:13
“May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.”
The Thessalonians were told that when Jesus came for them He would also come with all His holy ones
Then Paul says in Chapter 4 vs 13-18
“We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
This is clearly talking about the rapture and we are informed that “those who have fallen asleep in Him” are included in the group of “all His holy ones”. This is at “the coming of the Lord”, so the rapture is included in that event, and it is the beginning of it.
We then join the Lord and the resurrected and the Holy angels in the air. There is no mention made about what happens next, we are only told that we will be with the Lord forever, so no conclusions should be drawn about “where we go from here”.
In Paul’s second letter, he is elaborating on what He wrote to them in the first, because apparently, they were worried that the second coming may have already happened.
Paul is speaking of when the Lord will pay back those who cause His people trouble…
2 Thessalonians Chapter 1 vs 7b-10
“This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Paul here only mentions the Lord coming with the angels, but he had already written to them that the Lord would come with “all his holy ones” which does include believers. Notice it says it will happen “on the day that he comes to be glorified in His holy people and to be marveled at by those who believe. Jesus appears to his people, and punishes the wicked in the same general time period. This is clearly not years apart.
Next, Paul is going to give us another time marker:
2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 vs 1-4
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
First, notice that “the coming of the Lord” and “our being gathered to him” (rapture) is in conjunction with “the Day of the Lord” (which we also know from multitudinous Scriptural references is also the culminating event of God’s wrath.)
“That day” (the Day of the Lord) will not come until the “rebellion” (apostasy, or falling away) occurs and the man of sin (anti-christ, first beast) is revealed.
There is no way around this – the Lord does not gather up His people until after the revealing of the man of sin. Mr. Kinsella is either blind or misled, as he made this statement:
“Is Paul talking about it in the context of the Tribulation? Clearly. Paul says it has to happen BEFORE the man of sin is revealed. “
Obviously, that is NOT what Paul is saying.
Now on to Matthew 24:15, 29-31
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel-let the reader understand-then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains…"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”
Here we have another time marker. We know that the abomination is set up mid way through the Tribulation (according to Daniel). Then we are told when the Lord will appear to gather the elect. It is “immediately after the distress of those days” (obviously meaning the time period that we should already know about that occurs after the abomination is set up, which is 3 ½ years, or 1260 days.) Again we see that the Lord comes with His angels and gathers up His people (in the air) and though we are not told so here, we know from the other Scriptures that we return to the earth (not years later) with the Lord as He judges the wicked on “the Day of the Lord.”
Notice that Mr. Kinsella only gives a verse here and there and then does a lot of explaining about what they mean, rather than providing the whole topic in its context. He has to do that, because when you read it straight from the bible, one does not get “pre-trib” out of it.
Also, notice that he interprets “the one who occupies” as being the Holy Spirit. That is the interpretation that is necessary for a pre-tribber. However, it has been proven that it is not a pre-trib rapture, so we do not have to “force” this interpretation of a relatively obscure portion of Scripture.
Here is what the Scripture ACTUALLY says about it:
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 “And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.”
Is Paul trying to make a point about the rapture here? No. Clearly not. Paul just got done telling the church that the Day of the Lord would not come until after the man of sin was revealed. Now he is explaining that there is someone who is holding back this revealing of the man of sin. It could be the Holy Spirit, or in could be an angel. Either way, we are only told that when the one who restrains is taken out of the way, then the anti-christ will be revealed. To claim that this is a reference to “the Holy Spirit being taken out of the way which is symbolic of the removal of the church at the beginning of the Tribulation” is a forced interpretation based on the pre-understanding of a pre-trib rapture which in fact is not fact. Also, if there was going to be such a key event as the removal of the Holy Spirit from the earth with seven years to go, should it not be stated much more clearly somewhere in Scripture? Good bible study makes obscure verses and passages conform to those which are clear. Not vice versa.
Also, and I think the point has been made before by an observant reader – If the Holy Spirit is removed, how then can anyone be saved during the Tribulation (which has to happen in the Pre-trib view).
Mr. Kinsella states:
“They argue that the promise to keep the Church from God's wrath really means God will preserve it through His wrath. So the Church should prepare itself to withstand the coming of the antichrist.
But I can't find anywhere in Scripture that directs me to do that, or anything from Scripture that would teach me how.”
Where does the promise that we will be kept from God’s wrath demand that we be completely removed? As I have adduced before, Israel was in Egypt the whole time they were struck with the plagues of God’s wrath. God’s people did not suffer His wrath, though they were right there in the middle of it all.
As for his assertion that he can’t find anything that teaches him how to prepare, apparently, this teacher or pastor or whatever he claims to be needs to read more.
2 Peter 3:10-15, 17,18 – “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him… Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
Hmmm – “What kind of people ought you to be?” What people? Those who are watching for His coming as a thief on the Day of the Lord.
Now do you know how to get ready Mr. Kinsella?
...Also, I would like everyone to keep in mind that we should all be a bit sceptical and wary about people/ministries that make money off of their interpretation of God's Word. You don't make much money telling people things that are hard to hear. The truth does not sell nearly as well as a nice feel-good story.
Matthew 10:7-8 - "As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
I Corinthians 9:17-18 - "If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it."
I Peter 5:2 - "Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve..."
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God has given us His Word free of charge. He will provide the Holy Spirit without cost to us. What makes us think that it is a good idea to make money off of what has been freely given to us?
Now, before anyone claims that I am against anyone making a basic living off the gospel; that is not true. However, the Scripture do provide some guidelines as to who may, and what is acceptable and how things should be done. The modern church greatly abuses it "rights". If Jesus were here, he'd be driving a lot of folks out of the temple, so to speak.
Here is a good study on the subject:
http://www.biblestudying.net/support.html
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