A number of respected Pastors and Christian Columnists across our nation are rightly sounding an alarm at the thickening shroud of global governance descending upon our nation. With the promised "change" now being delivered, the spectre of a militarized one-world spirituality is darkening the horizon of Earth under the guise of "change", "hope", "progress", and "peace".
I understand -- and share -- the righteous anger over the sorry state of the church and its lackadaisical response to the evils of our time. Though we take some comfort that our Lord could return at any time for His Bride (to provide us with the promised "escape" spoken of in Luke 21:36 even if it doesn't take the form of the Rapture as is widely believed), it appears that even those whose blessed hope is in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture should take heed and prepare for precipitous times ahead -- just in case.
1 Peter 4:12-16 (KJV) Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
In light of increasing daily distress over our nation's (this world's) moral and political descent into darkness, I've felt the need to study this subject now especially with the threat of a global pandemic and a nuclear war looming.
Last week, I finally got the chance to sit down and watch the film Defiance. If you haven't seen it, or if you're unfamiliar with the story (a true story nonetheless!), it's the saga about how in August of 1941 the Nazi forces swept through Eastern Europe targeting Jewish people.
Among the survivors not killed or restricted to ghettos are the Bielski brothers: Tuvia (Daniel Craig), Zus (Liev Schreiber), Asael (Jamie Bell), and Aron (George MacKay). Their parents are dead, slain by the local police under orders from the occupying Germans. The brothers flee to the forest, vowing to avenge their parents. Yet, beyond that single act of vengeance they are split as to how they should respond to the German atrocities and the compliance of those who were once their friends and neighbors.
They encounter other Jewish escapees hiding in the forest and the brothers take them under their protection and leadership. Over the next year, they shelter a growing number of refugees, raiding local farms for food and supplies, moving their camp whenever they are discovered by the Germans.
Here's the trailer:
Defiance Film Trailer
At one point in the movie, when the survivors are all huddled in the forest and contemplating what they should do next, there's a pretty good debate about the faith-oriented response (the human-related response) of the survivors to the Germans and those who continue to aid them.
I know that we've touched upon this idea in these parts in the past, but there was one quote made by one of the Tuvia character during this particular sequence that really made an impact on me because I have a feeling the Body of Christ will be faced with a similar predicament soon.
On the issue of whether or not we should fight back, or become the aggressors and go on the offensive against such brutal tyranny:
"We will take only from those who can afford to give, and we will leave those who can't alone. Our revenge is to live! We are not thieves. We are not murderers. We may be hunted like animals, but we will not become animals. We have all chosen this...to live here free like human beings for as long as we can. Every day of freedom is like an act of faith. And if we should die? Trying to live? Then at least we died like human beings." Tuvia (Daniel Craig's character)
What's your stance on the subject? I've often said that just because we're Christians doesn't mean we are to be doormats. Yet, at the same time, I'm starting to recognize that perhaps taking to the streets and fighting back in the form of hand-to-hand combat and guerrilla warfare (to go on the offensive at all) is not the way to go.
Of course, as with all things, we look to the Bible for some guidance. The word "defiant" or "defiance" does not show up anywhere in the Scriptures. However, the word "vengeance" does. In fact, we find it in the King James Version 45 times in 39 verses. Likewise, the word "revenge" appears only 5 times in 5 verses.
As far as I can tell, God NEVER gives us a command to take matters into our own hands and try to seek vengeance via our own efforts because vengeance is ALWAYS reserved for the Lord and the Lord alone.
What about specific historical situations that are recorded in the Bible? Can they also provide us with some insight as to how to handle ourselves in the face of such growing opposition and oppression? I believe they most certainly can.
Lot's Wife - Don't Look Back!
The first clear example that comes to mind is the story of Lot's wife. No, it was not about "fighting back" in the typical sense, but in another sense it could be argued that his wife's willingness to turn back to the world illustrated her heart's true motive to stay and try to fight to preserve the world, the reality, the way of life, she had come to know so well. Surely, that's an appropriate commentary for us, isn't it?
Luke 17:32 (KJV) Remember Lot's wife.
Jesus simply says "Remember Lot's Wife" using her as a symbolic warning to professing Christians to not turn back to their sin after leaving it, but I wonder if we can also apply a more literal instruction here as well.
Joseph - A Model Christian
The slave traders took him into Egypt and sold him to Potiphar, one of the Pharaoh’s officers. Joseph served his master well and gained great favor, but the master’s wife tried to seduce him (a young man of impeccable integrity). After he rejected her, she went to her husband with false accusations. It resulted in Joseph’s imprisonment. Did he fight back even though he knew the truth? No, he didn't. Once again, God proved his presence and protection for Joseph.
We find that Joseph was a man of great integrity. He was tried and tested by events in life that could have left him bitter or angry. Instead, he had a close relationship with God in which he remained steadfast, regardless of the undeserved adversities and trials that he was forced to endure.
As a man of great faith, Joseph was open to hearing in his spirit what God intended for him and his life to come. God proved through Joseph that social position is of little importance to God, bringing him from a meager standing to a role of great importance and example.
God honors integrity, obedience, and faithfulness. Our obedience to Him and His Word will bring increased guidance and blessings from Him. With God’s help, any situation or appearance of things gone wrong, can be used for a good outcome when we remain steadfast and have a personal relationship with God. It's really that simple and truly a matter of faith.
To Rome - Imprisonment and Witness
Today, the operative word in computers is "interactive." Books in software permit us to interact with the text by writing our own endings. By the way Luke concludes the Book of Acts, he shows us that he wants us to interact fully with its message -- not that we control it, but that it controls us. Thus, the arrival at Rome becomes another possible example of how we are to respond in the face of unjust oppression (Acts 28:11-16).
Paul has made clear he belongs to, serves, and believes in the one true God, who was his protector and deliverer:
Acts 27:23-25 (KJV) For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
So, today, although there are others who will undoubtedly point to this nation's Founding Fathers and tout secular ideology (i.e. patriotism) as our means of deliverance, our protector, and our savior from tyranny, isn't the Christian supposed to refute such a position and know who is really in gracious control?
If we keep reading this account we come across an incredible irony: Paul the imperial prisoner makes a triumphal procession to the capital of the Empire! How did he accomplish this? Through God's provision (and the fulfillment of His Word) when Paul encountered some Roman Christian brothers in Puteoli!
What an attractive picture of the worldwide network of support and encouragement that Christians know as part of the Body of Christ! This speaks directly to what I wrote in the last entry about feeling as if now should be the time to get to know my family, friends, and neighbors the best I can in the pursuit of genuine fellowship. To the cosmopolitan Roman then, and the sophisticated but unconnected urbanite now, Paul's experience of instant, but genuine intimacy and full-fledged mutual commitment in the company of brothers at Puteoli, is a refreshing picture of what they long for and can have in the gospel (compare Acts 16:15, 33-34; 21:7; 27:3).
At the sight of these men Paul thanked God and was encouraged (literally, "took courage"). Paul "took courage" especially at the sight of the Roman Christians. Because the Judaizing opposition either followed Paul to Rome or greeted him there (Philippians 1:15-19), this show of support was surely most significant to him. As Christians today face the future, they too need support from one another, especially in prayer, if they are to "take courage."
How did Paul bear witness? With complete freedom. Inwardly, he knew no pressure of fear to conceal or obscure or hesitate about the truth. Rather, boldly (literally, "with all boldness") by the power of the Spirit -- candidly, clearly, and confidently -- he was preaching and teaching. Paul's prison epistles from this period mention serious adversaries and ask for prayer that he might be bold (Ephesians 6:19-20; Philippians 1:15-20). If even Paul had to ask for prayer for boldness, there is hope for the rest of us.
The outward freedom Paul knew is framed by the very last word of Acts: akolytos, "unhindered". Though there may be incarceration, the Word of God is not bound. Luke has fully demonstrated that the implementation/application portion of the salvation message is indeed true (Lukek 1:4; 24:47). And if his readers in any day embrace that message, they will soon find themselves embodying it, proclaiming repentance to the forgiveness of sins in His name to all people "with all boldness, unhindered."
So may it be till Jesus comes. Perhaps that will be the greater purpose in any persecution we will face in the future -- to praise God at all times no matter what, but to also proclaim the Gospel to those who desperately need to hear it; those rounding us up or forcing us to do something against our will. Perhaps.
So, What Is The Appropriate Biblical, Christian Response To Tyranny?
What should we make of this desire amongst Christians (heck, I've even felt passionately about "fighting back" to some extent too in recent weeks) to outline measures that people can take, en masse, to peacefully reclaim liberty and restore Constitutional order?
It should be clear by now that this article isn't concerned with suggesting a roadmap for political action. Rather, it is to articulate and apply what I've learned through my recent studies about a Biblical response to the foreboding future tyranny that is prophesied (and proceeding) to unite the world in a Babel-like rebellion under the coming Antichrist.
Surprisingly, and I've even hinted about this already, the cause and cure of our nation's decline is a controversial subject even among conservative Christians. I'd venture to guess that most people reading this probably agree with the statement, "A real Christian patriot would never allow his country to be taken over by a gaggle of elitist goons bent on stealing his liberties..." because I used to feel the exact same way just a few short weeks ago!
The Berean Call in a commentary dated April 2, 2009 titled "Would Paul Answer The Call To Christian Patriotism?" provided us with some excellent points to ponder. Forgive me for the lengthy excerpt, but I haven't found a Christian response to this debate that captures the truth of the matter and presents it in such a coherent way as this piece did.
Here's the excerpt:
"Christian Patriot", huh? These two words are inextricably linked in the minds of most Americans who grew up with any kind of serious education regarding the nature of our Constitutional Republic and the faith of our Founding Fathers. The ideals of a "Christian Patriot" are indeed wonderful -- to live in a nation that exalts our Creator and whose government is firmly rooted in God's Word. But is this our earthly hope and promise prior to Jesus Christ's return? And, is this the mission to which the church is called -- to establish "one nation, under God, indivisible...?" Is this the example of our spiritual forefathers?
Let's also consider Joseph and Daniel. These courageous men (both types of Christ, among many), were subjected to all manner of trials and temptation, and yet they did not resist the enemy with force. Still, God spared them. They both rose to prominence in pagan cultures that literally worshiped demon gods -- Satan himself -- in various manifestations, but did either Joseph or Daniel attempt to overthrow these empires by political persuasion? Did they stir up the faithful to stage a protest or ignite a revolution? No, of course not!
"That's the Old Testament!" some might protest. Then what of Paul? What of Peter? Did these equally courageous New Testament saints resist their captors with force? Did these powerful apostles of Christ start a political party to declare their independence from the pagan world in which they preached? To a man, no. All of Christ's disciples except John were martyred -- and not for their "inalienable rights" to live in a country that worshiped God nor for their right to "keep and bear arms."
We have enjoyed (and oft taken for granted) the liberties afforded us at the expense of those who bled and died for our gain. This is a testament to their courage, faith, and God's grace -- but does this mean that the American Revolution is a biblical example and pattern of behavior for us to follow? To my own initial confusion and dismay (as it contradicts years of conservative Christian-heritage instruction) there is not a single example in Scripture of "armed revolution" of any kind as a pattern for the church.
Remember, it is the Lord who raises up kings (both just and unjust) and allows them to dictate the rules of the land in order to bring about His will for His people (Psalm 75:7; Daniel 2:21; Proverbs 21:1); and, as we have seen in the example of Israel, "judgment must begin at the house of God" (1 Peter 4:17).
Grievously, America is ripe for judgment...and so is the church. Though it is difficult for us to "count it all joy" (James 1:2-4), the persecution and trials that are coming upon us are for the purification of God's remnant. As such, a true soldier of Christ seeks to "understand the times" (1 Chronicles 12:32) and prepare his household, his church, and his community -- not for a revolution of might but one of heart and mind.
In fact, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world... [else] would my servants fight" (John 18:36). Do not misunderstand -- I am not a pacifist by strict definition. I support the Second Amendment; I'm teaching all three of my sons how to be responsible marksmen, whether for food provision or self- and family defense. But here's the difference: the right to "keep and bear arms" was not granted to us by God. If (when) our government knocks on my door and demands my weapons under threat of violence or imprisonment, would it be a biblical response to resist or "open fire!"?
Thousands of neo-Patriots cheered, as did I, when former NRA president and "Moses" actor Charleton Heston declared that the only way he would surrender his weapons is when the enemy (our own government) "pried them from [his] cold, dead, hands." But through study, prayer, and reflection, I've come to the conviction that it would be foolish to give my life for this "right" given to me by man. Though reluctantly and in the flesh, I pray that I will "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's" (Mark 12:17; Romans 13:1-7). If necessary, I'll defend my family with my life without a rifle, but we must trust in God's ability to deliver us from that "temptation," or trial, when it comes (Psalm 22:4; James 1:2-4).
My fear today is that if Christians answer a "call to arms" to fight whatever totalitarian regime is being plotted (in preparation for Antichrist), then godly men will be imprisoned or die, leaving women and children behind to be ravaged both physically and spiritually. Going down in a "blaze of glory" like the Revolutionary "heroes" sounds good to our own flesh, but if we are dead men, how can we minister the gospel under whatever pagan ruler or communist culture rises to replace our Constitutional Republic?
We are in a spiritual battle, but we must choose on which hill we are willing to die. Dying for Nationalistic Pride or even for our "Rights" is not the same as dying for the cause of Christ. Far better for godly men to survive in a pagan nation and submit to rule of law (which God ordains) and to subsist by His Word—unless (or until) we are asked to bow down and worship a false god. Such an affront would still not be cause to take up arms. In the life-and-death trial of the fiery furnace, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah did not go into the flames as "National Patriots," willing to die for their "Bill of Rights," nor did they offer any physical resistance to their captors. Like Christ's, theirs was a peaceful obedience and demonstration of submission to God, who alone is able to save (Daniel 3:17-18; James 4:12; Hebrews 7:25).
Does this mean, as some brethren suggest, that I am weak, unfaithful, or lazy? Does it mean that I am consigned to our nation's "fate"? No! On the contrary, I am reminded that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood," which causes me to re-focus God's precious resources of time and energy on eternal things -- not on fulfilling the "American Dream" for myself and my posterity, nor on establishing God's "kingdom now." Rather, we must earnestly set about "redeeming the time" (Ephesians 5:16) with renewed fervor to preach the gospel and make disciples -- not for an earthly hope of heaven here, but with an eye on his kingdom to come (Christ's eternal kingdom). Scripture is clear that this present terrestrial globe "shall melt with fervent heat...and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10). That includes every church building, every mansion, every monument, every false god, and every political power structure built or imagined by mankind -- whether Democrat or Republican, Communist or "Christian."
As Christians, we should protect and defend human life wherever we are. We should never deny Christ in order to save our lives, but to throw ourselves in front of an advancing tank that threatens our "Constitutional" liberties would only crush and silence our voice for God, and would do nothing for the cause of Christ.
These are difficult issues that one must prayerfully work through. May our Lord continue to sharpen us all for His glory and His purpose, "having done all, to stand" (Ephesians 6:13) and, as He commanded, "Occupy till I come" (Luke 19:13) -- doing so not in a passive state but in a state of action for the gospel and cause of Christ. "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20).
Amen! My sentiments exactly! This is PRECISELY where my heart and mind have been set for the past month now. That can't be for no reason at all. I thank my Heavenly Father for leading me through this exegesis. Folks, our marching orders are clear I think.
Ultimately, I'm left wondering if the fact that an overwhelming majority of Christians that I know are predisposed to "fighting back" by taking matters into their own hands rather than heeding what the Scriptures clearly tell us (that the battle and vengeance is the Lord's) is evidence of the fulfillment of another end times prophecy:
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (KJV) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Maybe that's why guys like Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, and Steve Quayle are so popular these days. It's one thing to shine the light of truth on the darkness of deceit to try and expose evil so that people will not be deceived (after all, if people fall for the deceptions of man, then how much easier will they fall for the deceptions of the Antichrist with all his "lying signs and wonders"?), but another thing entirely to incite people to respond in any way that would go against good, sound Biblical teaching especially when they claim to be doing what they do for the Lord (ok, Glenn Beck is the exception from the list of names I referenced above). That's just not right.
We need to make sure our motives are pure when it comes to this discussion. Are we protesting and reporting on such issues because we want to open people's eyes and ears to the truth so that they will recognize their need for the the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ before it's too late, or are we doing it just to prevent further change and maintain the status quo of this life we've come to know and love so well? Food for serious thought.
What are your thoughts on this debatable, uneasy subject? Is this the proper conclusion that's applicable to our time, situation, and faith? Is this the appropriate Biblical response of defiance, or is it an act of disillusionment and the embodiment of naivete?
39 Comments:
I agree with the Berean Call on this one.
Jesus said we would suffer for His name and I find it odd that those of us in the US really don't know what that means. While we read about our brothers and sisters in Christ round the world suffering and dying we think "the Lord must not want us to suffer". At least that is what I think when I see Christians call on their lawyers when they are being persecuted...
I agree with you on this topic. We have not been called to preserve some document no matter how good it is. We have not been called to preserve the American way of life.
We have been called to be a light to the world and killing someone for the sake of these earthly things is to go against the calling of God.
Can you kill someone who has not known Christ and in a sense send him to hell for the sake of your "rights". Should we not tell them the great gift our Lord has given?
There is the topic of self defense. However I won't comment because the Lord hasn't revealed that to me yet.
I think that many in the body are considering these things that you speak of. I was taught ( in church ) to be a pacifist, always using the Word to tell me that I should turn the other cheek so to speak. However, over the years I have found this was a way to control and get by with things on their part. We were made to be nice sheep and NEVER question their authority while at the same time told to study to show oneself approved. Well, this has caused many problems as the word will always speak TRUTH and then you ask questions and then ,well, I think most can fill in the blank(s) as to what happens then !
This is a huge undertaking and I have been led to be looking into this very thing all year regarding how do we take care of ourselves and our families. God had Joseph prepare,but on the other hand there are many instances that seem to contradict that particular event. So we could go on forever....what to do? I am still searching, and trusting. But I am trying to get some food put aside and DAILY living by His voice. It is how it has been for me for years. Yet, I admit, I do feel frustrated and quite alone in all of this. Please no one tell me how God is always w/ me as I know this, and if we are to be honest this stuff is very scary at times . I came out of word of faith and have seen "every move of God " for 30 years now and being prophetic and an intercessor, I am just tired and even exhausted at times over the condition of God's people.Yeah, grow not weary in well doing.... I am more like David in the psalms these days ! Any thoughts anyone ? Thanks for taking time.. H.
I don't think pacifism in the face of an obligation to come to the aid of others in peril, is a noble cause. It's just a bastardized version of peace that so many on the left subscribe to.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the
heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to
pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time
to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time
to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from
embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to
cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a
time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time
of peace."
Proverbs 20:18
"Every purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war."
And before someone mentions it, I believe the sixth commandment does not say 'Thou shalt not kill'", it says, "Thou shalt not commit murder."
I have thought about this for some time. I have not made a decision. I have decided that I will make my decision at the time. If God does not want me to fight, then I hope and expect that He will stop me from fighting. However, I have one question. If a man broke into your house and threatned to raped your wife and kids, would you stand by and preach the gospel to him while he rapes and kills your family, or would you kill him? I for one would put a bullet between his eyes. We are to protect our families, and protecting them from the NWO is no different in my opinion. God is the same today, yesterday and forever - right? If so, God told the Jews to kill the Cannanites, Hittites, etc.. I believe that their is a difference between dying for the gospel's sake, and dying protecting your loved ones. No greater love has a man then to lay down is life for his friends. Personally, I cannot let someone break into my house and do nothing. If God Himself tells me not to do anything, then I will not. However, I think the idea of turning the other cheek is not fully understood. If God wanted us to turn the other cheek in all instances, then why did the Lord tell Peter and the disciples to bring their swords with them? I will expect God to tell me what to do at the time. I will not make up my mind now, but I know how I will respond based upon my personality, unless told otherwise.
The last 2 comments by ATTY and King are spot on. That's why this has been such a difficult issue for me to work through lately.
I agree wholeheartedly that we don't just stand there and watch tyranny run wild over our loved ones. As a husband and a father I am called by God to protect my family.
The challenge for me is knowing what situation constitutes the appropriate response. To be more specific, what type of circumstances and situation ALLOWS ME to "act out" and what type of circumstances and situation REQUIRES ME to "go along" despite my misgivings?
There's no easy answer that I can see just yet, and yet I know that our God is not a God of confusion, and that His Word contains all the answers to make this a black-and-white issue without any shades of gray.
I will continue to pray and study as best I can and ask Him to guide me accordingly just in case these next few weeks are going to be as crazy as many of us suspect they might.
Please do the same and share your discoveries here as well for me and the rest of us.
Saved By Grace Through Faith,
Jeff (JRed)
I disagree with Jeff and I disagree with the Berean Call.
What makes we Christians any different than Jews?? One of us (Christians/Gentiles) is the apple of Jesus's eye and the other (Jews) are the apple of God the Father's eye. Now would any of you advocate that the Jews in Israel refuse to protect themselves from the evil of Hamas, Hezbollah,Syria or Iran?? Would you advocate that they become passive lay down their weapons and have the evil monsters that surround them kill their children, rape their women and butcher and eradicate every Jew in Israel??
I believe you (Jeff/Berean) would answer-- OF COURSE NOT!!!They have the right to protect themselves and their families. So then does the triune God that we worship have a double standard, one for the Jews and one for Christians?? My mind says--absolutely not.
Just as the Israelies are not the aggressors(unless extremely provoked)but have taken a defensive posture so we as Christians should do the same. But if the evil in this country(no different than the evil Israel is facing--i.e.--principalities and powers) comes after us to load us on cattle cars to be taken to the eradication ovens as 6 million Jews were in WW2 then I say as Benjimine Netanyahu has recently said--NEVER AGAIN!!!! And that includes America. We need to RESIST with any means at our disposal. For some that means prayer--For some that's passive resistance--And for some it may come to lethal resistance.
You gentlemen can get in the internment camp / eradication line if you want to but I as one favor the Israeli or the Charlton Heston approach. I have EXTREME FAITH in our Lord Jesus Christ and the fact that He is coming to get us "at some point" during the dark days ahead. But in the interim I also have a "little faith" in a few friends that may be called on to protect my family. They have names like Smith, Weston,Savage and Remington. And if a whole bunch of us collectively have a "little faith" as our constitution allows then maybe we can collectively ward off this evil here in America until our Great Protector arrives.
God bless you all---Keep your FAITH close and your power dry.
John
In an effort to remain unified, it is important to understand that more likely than not, many of us will be called to respond to this situation differently by God and for very distinct reasons. When someone hits you in the eye your body parts do not all respond the same way. One hand grabs the eye to protect it, the digestive system and all nonvital systems go on hold to provide energy for the body to deal with this crisis, the nerve endings alert the brain of the emergency, the eye waters to remove any intrusive particles, and the other hand clenches into a fist and swings back! All of these are important and necessary responses to the situation at hand.
Likewise, some are called to fight this battle politically, some surreptitiously, some blatantly, some in prayer, some in word, some in the Spirit and some in the natural. Why would God do this if the outcome is fixed? Because there must be a witness for Him on every front. No one shall be able to say "I didn't know..."
I can't fathom taking up arms in an offensive posture in this matter, but I acknowledge that war is not the same as murder, and that such is a possibility. We have to pray that God will give us ears to hear His directives to us individually, and eyes to see the Body at work so we do not waste precious energy fighting against one another. Let's ask God to give us an overall "big picture" (which we as the Church have historically lacked) so we can be in agreement with our brothers & sisters in their callings and reveal truth to those who are not in their callings.
I know this much, whatever our task it will require dying to our flesh, so we cannot act out of our own carnality, we MUST be led by the Spirit.
Lord, please cause us to be of one mind in the Spirit and to hear You clearly. Let us be quick to obey Your every word. We commit our lives and these days ahead to You. Be glorified in them.
TML
As I am reading and thinking through all these comments a thought crossed my mind. God had to know when He started choosing to spread the Gospel through men that it would produce a very large following. What is the number of Christians on the earth today? 1 or 2 billion? I don't know.
What I do know is that the generation of my parents, world war 2, is far different than the generation that is running this country today. The "Hippie" generation running this country today is bent on making faith based people question their own motives to the point that they render themselves useless. Think about it, do our parents or grandparents struggle with what is "right" and "wrong"? NO! They just live by their God given convictions and follow them with no question.
Yea, you make some good points about fighting back, but I also see the spirit today that is making everyone second guess themselves into a convictionless life! We are not to play such games with the Almighty Creator who when He says "GO" we should not ask how far, but rather put our foot to the ground without question.
I know I am rambling, but my point is that Jesus commanded us to walk boldly and in one direction for Him. He uses a couple analogies that I apply in my own walk.
Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
This is how I see these verses; You are a weak sheep amongst ravaging predators. Therefore be as wise as the crafty serpent (putting your brain to work to DEAL with these hounds), but always maintain your God given integrity and hold what is Holy to your heart and life and protect it like a priceless pearl!
That means you've got to have more guts than those vile sinful reprobates when dealing with them. Jesus was never afraid to call them what they were. The problem with todays Christians is that we have been trained to play nice, the Sesame Street way and render ourselves useless in using the Law of God to show this world their need of His Salvation! We must rid ourselves of this "Psycho Babble" that has infected the minds of our brethren. I am so sick of the watered down Gospel message. It is an insult to Christ's sacrifice on the cross!
You will draw men to yourself when they see you living the strong convictions that God has given you. Strength - God's Strength.
Humm, This is a tough one.
I firmly think Christians should not go out & join a revolt against the powers that be - for then you are working against what God has allowed to be set up.
This Global Deal is going to be formed one way or another- whether we like it or not. The restraing force on the U.S. may be lifting gradually & we are witness to the effects of it right now.
Now are we really going to be pleased w/the outcome & what as Christians we will endure ?-of course not. Meanwhile- while we still have free speech rights we can vote & sign petitions & express our Biblical view contrary to the worldview. (Realizing that may be short lived.)
Hey-it's been easy street for the most part & materialism w/ Christians asleep at the wheel has been the outcome. The U.S. is currently being shaken & awakened.
Now- here we are praying for Christ to come back more than ever & - Well, He's answering our prayers-Praise God!(And it doesn't look like any time is being wasted!)
But you know God has His divine way of doing things and the bottom line of it is be anxious of nothing & keep steadfast in a strong faith. Remember that Christ is indwelling those born again & we can be used as a conduit for His glory at anytime as long as we live in the Spirit & not resort to the flesh.
God's power is available to us. Always remember who you are connected to in Christ. And if we ever get in a sticky situation-then cry out to Him & just watch what the Creator of the Universe may do on our behalf.
I don't think I would want to be the person attacking my family when I start praying loud & earnestly to the Father to assist us in a time of distress.
I have faith that He would really do something. If it's not His will to intercede then He's got even better plans in mind to work out through the situation at hand.
Reading up on the Christian Missionaries & what they have endured for the sake of the gospel & how God has shown His glory & delivered them in times of distress is a great thing to know & learn about. It will build up your faith even if you have not experienced anything similar in life.
Perhaps it’s time to dust off some of the old books & take a fresh look at how to live in the Spirit under trying circumstances. Satan certainly doesn’t want us knowing how to do that- well.
I've been praying & asking God to show me how to discern His voice more effectively-on my part. If you have the 2-way communication going then you'll move into action when He tells you to or it may be to just stay put.
But since you already pray to Him & anticipate that He will speak back to you & you are used to & know His voice- then you'll be ready for anything to come.
Conversely, if fighting only takes us away (arrest, imprisonment, etc.) from those we have a responsibility to protect (i.e., our families) and leaves them unprotected, then I would say no.
And if it becomes a matter of having to do or accept anything that may be considered "against Christ", then don't fight, give your life willingly, and get your eternal reward later.
Psalm 75:7 - But God [is] the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
Proverbs 21:1 - The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Daniel 2:21 - And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
These verses are used to show that God appoints world leaders. HOWEVER...
1 Samuel 8:6 - But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
God did NOT want a King over Israel, but they demanded one anyway. They got what they asked for. (and it wasn't good)
Hosea 8:4 - They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew [it] not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.
I see ample evidence for self defense in scripture:
Nehemiah 4:17 - They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, [every one] with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other [hand] held a weapon.
Luke 22:36 - Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
But NONE for an offensive "revolution":
Daniel 11:14 - And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.
Romans 12:19 - Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Revelation 13:10 - He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Matthew 10:16,23 - Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Good articles here:
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=905
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=140
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=swordorcross
http://www.foxven.com/s-self.html
What a subtle..develish..question: " but what about your loved ones? "
Probably Lots wife thought the same..
Lone
You know what I love about reading Christian blogs? I see so many who are not living the "watered down" Christianity of the rest of the world!!! Praise GoD!!! Lift up His name!!! We CAN have an impact on others while there is still time. We MUST speak as He directs us. I am blessed to read these comments and so proud and happy to see that God is raising up His remnant!
Each day has enough trouble of its own...and when we are in difficult situations we are not alone so why worry? We are told when brought before magistrates that we'll be given what to say and if we remember to seek from within what steps we are to be take in situations we know not what to do it is my experience that we'll not be left alone and like 'ALWAYS'...we shall come to know what we are to do for the steps of yielded vessels are easily led...
There is a difference between thou shalt not murder and thou shalt not kill...these tares are still here and the battle is still being waged...perilous times indeed.
Fear not little children I have over come the world...take comfort in these words and let not your hearts be troubled...no weapon formed us shall prevail against us for that is our heritage as those servants who like children in service to our Abba seek His will in all things...and if we err His mercies are new each day and He is able to work all things for the good for His arm of power is not short...It is the right hand of power not this left handed backward tampering of times and laws we are enduring but for a little season...
Be of good cheer as we are given opportunity to exercise our faith and do exploits already prepared for us to do...Remember nothing new...and it becomes so much easier and a light burden when we remember His yoke is light...
For what is worth, here are my thoughts.
We once said,"for God and for country,,,"
it is clear, now it is for God only. It has always been a 'world' issue, yet we have lived for long under the impression that we can have soveriegnity along with God's blessing. Unfortunately our Constitution allows for religious freedoms that no longer give credence to the Christian tenets which were the foundation of our country. Therefore we are void of blessing. It is incumbent upon each individual Christian to hold firm in Faith and to live as examples of the word of the Lord. To issue the Lord's Word in all we do and to those we exchange our daily interactions with.
It is a fine line within prophecy to distinguish what is ahead. Prophecy says Christ is to come again to take leadership over the world. Prophecy says another is to come again to take leadership over the world. It is no longer and issue of borders.
To have any love of a weapon is to love more that which it defends. To that end I will protect my family in what ever means I am guided. And yes. I do own a gun. Yet that gun has no representation of the Love of the Lord Jesus. For which, my only defence, is to proclaim that Love against any force, unto death. I will run if necessary, to survive, and if caught, will proclaim the Lord's throne above all other gods.
Theirs is a lust. Ours is a Love. I will run if necessary and seek a network of bretheren Christians, and try to survive as long as possible. Along the way it may be necessary to shoot to kill to survive. But to submit to killing without justification is to submit to the lust the Lord knows is inherent in man. A lust He has always tried to get us to rise above.
The Lord knew these days would come. He warned us. It isn't about borders any more, it is about the world as a whole. I know that idea sucks, as I still have within me a patriotic thread, but I cannot deny what is occuring and why.
As distasteful as it is to say, BHO was right, we are not a Christian nation.Our Constitution firmly states this is a land of religious freedom. Though Christian tenets were the thread, it can no longer be so. We must assimilate or be ignored. We can not assimilate can we.
Therefore, we, as a country, are void of blessings. To take up arms for a 2nd revolution is noble. But it would not be Christian. I feel that killing will be necessary at some point, but not intentionally to re-instate a border.
I agree with jred and jim
my country IS the kingdom of GOD!
my political party IS CHRISTIAN!!
I will follow the teachings of CHRIST to the best of my human ability.
but if push comes to shove I will
use selfdefence, that point will be reveild to me by the HOLYSPIRIT!!! if and when the time comes.
but the most important thing to try and remember is, what would CHRIST do in this situation that I am now in???
we pray for guidence in all things,
thru our LORD JESUS CHRIST to our father GOD and his HOLY SPIRIT!!!!!!! amen
john
Saints,
We are being tested once again, just as the jews were. At the time of the crucifixion, there were zionists intrenched in the jewish culture who advocated overthrow of the roman yoke. What they (and some here) fail to realize is that God is in control and puts in place the leaders we have. They are the smith that blows the coals, and God is the one who created them. THIS IS A TEST OF FAITH FOR US, JUST AS IT WAS FOR THEM. Will we trust God, even in the face of dire circumstances, or will we try to "save our life" (and thus lose the greater one)?
David Eells has awesome writings on this very topic.... I would encourage everyone to read them:
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=swordorcross
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=torment
This is the LAST battle and it is a spiritual one. God wants all of his children, including the one down range from your rifle. And that person will not ever have a chance if we engage in an earthly battle. I have been wrestling with this too. I am a proponent of the second amendment and I am for self defense. However, at this time, I think God wants us to give the power and authority to him and not take it into our own hands with weapons. Jesus after all told Peter to put his sword away and then proceeded to heal the soldier's ear. Can we try and do no less?
I say evade as much as possible within the confines of God's law and passively resist to never deny Jesus. How courageous are those faced with certain death, told to deny Christ for their life and they refuse to deny him? That to me is the ultimate defiance of Satan. To say, I love Christ with all my heart, I will meet him soon and there is nothing you or your demon army can do about it!!
Anon:
WWJD? What did he say?
He led by personal example...
Simplifies things doesn't it!
Just as you title the page, we can only look up. As faith living Christians, we all know that our Father will guide us as to how we are to respond to a nation that has turned it's back on Him.
Why do you think so many of us have had these thoughts about survival? We know we will be persecuted. We know we will have to fend for ourselves. What are we to do when we refuse the mark of the beast?
God has placed each of us in a position to react to the coming persecution in different ways.
Some of us will need to be passive, so that they can continue to share the love of Jesus.
Some of us will need to fight, in some sense, to assist in the survival of the word of God. I myself am prepared to fight, if needed.
We are not called to preserve this way of life, or this country. But we better be prepared for the day when being a part of the "World System" means turning our backs on God.
You and the author of the Berean Call article have the correct perspective on this. The example of Jesus, the apostles and the early church was that war, retaliation, revenge and even self defense were unacceptable avenues for believers.
I think you will also enjoy this study on the subject:
http://www.biblestudying.net/war1.html
Self defense is unacceptable??
Do you ever get to spend your lunch money?
I agree that this is a tough subject. I have wrestled with it in my mind for a while now ever since things really started to go downhill in this country/world. My personality is to fight back, but I don't want to base my actions on that, since my personality traits have gotten me in trouble in the past!
That being said, I will try to stay in lock step with the Lord and do whatever He wants, whenever He wants.....whether it be fighting or not.
The truth is that God's will must be done in all things.
Does this mean that God said do not fight? Does it mean that he said do not defend the innocent?
He did not say dont fight. He did say defend the innocent.
He also designed the men to have a desire to protect their loved ones.
Can we go down passively for Christ. Sure. No Problem. I love him enough to trust his decision. But the answer is that it is his decision. As King said earlier, wait until the Holy Ghost gives you direction.
I am confident that if my family were threaten with rape or worse, the holy ghost will say "Defend them" Defend the innocent. Defend your loved ones. Do everything to protect them. I have made you their protector.
But, if he does not, I will be assured as I lay my life down that it is by his spirit I have made this decision. There is no room to question God; that would be sin. We just need to make sure that we are hearing from him.
So wait, let him tell you what to do. it is noble to defend your loved ones. Your loved ones expect you to defend them. Anyone who can watch their children or wife be harmed are worse than an infidel to me but I have no argument with you if you are sure that you heard from God and not that you simply misinterpreted his Word.
The Accuser, Satan, will persecute those who transgress against what Christ taught. Christ has the authority over those who have given their lives to Him. Pretty simple.
You only have two things to think about, really: 1) Are they coming to kill you for your beliefs? Or 2) Are they coming to kill you because you have picked up arms against the government?
So, if they are coming to kill you for your beliefs then it is clear that you need to accept the punishment (death) as Christ did. Period. You are a Martyr for Christ and are actually Blessed.
However, If they are coming to kill you for picking up arms against the government, then you have not followed Christ to yield to authority. You have every right and responsibility to fight lawfully for Christian beliefs. And, that will, in the end lead to death for your beliefs.
If they (the hoards) are coming to kill you for food, water, shelter, etc., then shoot away. That is raw evil and really no different than a rabid dog. Heck, you can even shoot twice!!
Remember, everything we do must be in accordance to Him. We are not lay down and let it happen. We are to fight. But remember, that political fight will in fact cause our death. A death we must freely accept. Luke 17:33- (NIV) “Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.”
I have a question. What should have Christians done in the case of the Rwandans or even the holocaust of the Jews? How should Christians deal with the slaughter of innocent life by military means. If American Christians have the means to protect and defend the rights of an innocent life, should it be done?
But so far we have failed to protect the 50 million innocent on our own shores anyway, abortion. What an absolute miserable example of the boomer and buster generations. It just goes to show you that the generation of our elder parents and grandparents are the ones we should be considering when talking about how a Christian should handle todays persecutions. Abortion would have been taboo in their generation. It is the hippie 70's generation that has led us to these atrocities.
Nate, you bring up an interesting two pronged observation. One instance of defending the innocent followed by a season of the innocent being slaughtered. Trying to stop Satan's schemes on earth is like sticking some bubble gum in a cracking dam. We are fighting and defending against Satan with human hands and Satan is patient and bides his time. The battle for souls is not won with guns and bullets, it is won by affecting people's heart's and mind's through God's word and our Holy Spirit. Paul tells us in Ephesians to put on the ARMOR OF GOD.
http://www.crossroad.to/Victory/Armor.htm
All of the armor is for defense, except the lethal sword which is the Word of God. Defend your flock in whatever manner without lethal force, but this only may bide you short windows in which to assist more people to Christ. Inevitably, Satan may win your flesh. Is our faith so small we are told from the bible directly but do not believe?
Mt 10:28* "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
To those who ascribe to the idea the returning violence for violence is acceptable, please provide examples where this is true for the follower of Jesus Christ (Christians).
There are a multitude of examples to the contrary.
While the urge to fight back is a natural response, Jesus wants His people to be "unnatural". Even the pagan wants to fight back when offended or harmed. That is the flesh's response.
Turn the other cheek - Unnatural
Love your enemies - Unnatural
Go the second mile - Unnatural
Return evil with good - Unnatural
Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Polycarp, Ignatius - These were all unnatural men - Spiritual men. They did not retaliate or fight back.
To those who say that we must defend our families with violence, the story is told of Peter's words to his wife as she was being led off to martyrdom - He said to her - "Remember the Lord".
If you love those who love you, what more are you doing than the pagans?
Question - Is it impossible to subdue an attacker without doing serious harm to them?
No one said that lethal violence is necessary in all cases. But defending your loved ones is written on your heart. God gave this to you.
Is anyone saying lethal force is necessary all of the time? I am not saying that. I have no problem letting my life and death be a witness to the lost that they may turn to Christ. I can, with the Lord's help, surrender for a greater cause of winning souls by my death.
Many of you fail to realize that defense if different than taking up arms as a solution against Satan's violence. Christ came with a different purpose and that purpose required him surrendering his life for a greater cause. If Christ saw a little girl being raped, would he just watch? I guarantee you he would have gotten involved and stopped that violence.
So, if they simply want to put us in gas chambers for being Christians, then maybe my family and I would go to our deaths as a sacrifice unto the Lord but to be passive in all cases thinking you are honoring God's wishes in all instances of violence is faulty.
The Lord Jesus is coming back with his sword to destroy Satan and his children. What would you tell him then? Would you say you cant do that. Scripture indicates that there are times to be passive and there are times to take up arms. Since God declared that these events would occur, does it make sense to take up arms? probably not but if your family is in danger then do you defend them? yes you do. I guarantee you that those saying there is never a time to fight are not men. We have been given the responsibility to defend.
And Moms. you also have that responsibility to defend your children.
.
There is a time to fight and a dime to die. The solution is to let God tell you what to do. There is a time for everything.
1There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a (A)time for every event under heaven--
2A time to give birth and a (B)time to die;
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
3A (C)time to kill and a time to heal;
A time to tear down and a time to build up.
4A time to (D)weep and a time to (E)laugh;
A time to mourn and a time to (F)dance.
5A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.
6A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
A time to keep and a time to throw away.
7A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;
A time to (G)be silent and a time to speak.
8A time to love and a time to (H)hate;
A time for war and a time for peace.
Again, it's amazing to watch how God is using this forum and the Body of Christ meeting here to apply the "iron sharpens iron" truth.
I thank all of you for your time, study, and thoughts on this subject -- keep 'em coming!
I especially appreciated Keith's last comment too.
The challenge for us is to clearly understand which situations allow us to "defend" so that we're not crossing that fine line over to the "attack" side of the equation.
You can be sure this is going to be a constant study for me over these next few weeks, or as long as it takes before it becomes crystal clear how we are to respond.
May the Lord grant me His grace and wisdom.
Saved By Grace Through Faith,
Jeff (JRed)
As we look at this subject, or for that matter any difficult or controversial subject in Scripture, we must remember a few things.
1. Never allow our feelings to dictate our theology/doctrine.
2. Scripture interprets Scripture, therefore one must always give preference to passages that are clearly stated over those that are less clear.
3. We are Christians, therefore we must not give Old Testament teachings sway over New Testament teachings.
4. Christianity = Christlikeness
Keith, Jesus's sword is the word of God, not an actual sword.
I believe that if Jesus saw a little girl being raped, he would walk over and pull the man off and rebuke him. He would be courageous and without fear and he would defend, but he wouldn't come up behind the man and kill him with a rod or a large stone. If his defense (some might consider it futile if not with lethal force) led to his death or the girls (meaning the man who was raping was with a weapon or had friends) then Jesus would rebuke again and pray for the salvation of all.
Would you consider running to the aid of a little girl and praying over her to be a "defense"? Some might consider that a cope out, but in God's eyes, who controls the ultimate justice, I believe He would consider that to be a viable defense of the innocent. Even if it didn't result in what our humanly heart would desire, which would be for that raping bastard to get what is coming to him. Revenge is not for us to administer.
I also do not see anything in Jesus' teachings that say that defending someone by physically harming another is acceptable or expected. Where is that found?
"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." - John 18:36
"When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say." - Luke 12:11-12
"For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly." - I Peter 2:19-23
More good points for sure...
You all assume that defending always means killing. it may sometimes lead to killing and sometimes you may be able to remove the person and stand strong as a defense without killing him. But if killing is necessary to defend then it may be necessary.
Now, I know that the sword of Jesus is the Word but look what God does to the wicked with his bowl/vial judgments in the book of Revelation. He kills them. First they suffer, wish they were dead and then die.
You misinterpret scripture. yes the Lord says he will give you words to say when they take you to the judges. Did he say that all circumstances warrant passivity?
Did it even say that you did not defend your own prior to going to the judge?
The Lord himself said that if the good man knew in what hour his home would be broken into, he would be prepared and ensure it does not happen (new testament). How is the good man to defend his home? Also, yes the Lord could have called his angels but he was there to die. It was not the father's plan to fight but to die for our souls that we might be redeemed. Does that imply we have no justification to defend ourselves? As I said before, you do have justification to defend your people and yourself. Does that mean this is the thing to do for this situation? Who knows. The correct position has to be to wait on the Lord. Don't tell me passivity is always the correct stance. This is not accurate interpretation of scripture. The only way you know the truth is to let the holy ghost guide you in the time of distress.
God has not changed from Old testament to New Testament as far as his character goes. As I said before, I am prepared to die for Christ. I am prepared to go as a lamb to the slaughter if he tells me to. Why? Because many will be redeemed when they see this massive slaughter of the saints for no justified reason. It will prove the Word of God to be true.
But, if my little ones are in immediate danger, and I do not feel that the Lord has instructed me to put away my sword then I will defend. With the Word of God, Christ is coming to make war against his enemies. There is a time for war and a time for peace, a time to die and a time to live.
One more thing. He who lives by the sword dies by the sword is interpreted by many here to mean
"He who picks up a weapon will die by a weapon"
This is wrong.
Living by the sword is living a life of violence. This would apply to soldiers. The way of the warrior or samurai would be considered living by the sword.
A life committed to a warrior way of life.
Picking up a weapon in self defense is not living by the sword.
Please understand the difference.
Nice discussion BTW, without resorting to aggression and hatred. Got to love Christian debate.
Kieth, I will concede about listening to the Holy Spirit. I have no problem with that. That is the only way to have some sense of God's master plan, which we wouldn't have an the slightest inkling otherwise.
And don't get me wrong, I am not a total pacifist and wasn't to wild about your "real men would defend" stance. I consider Jesus to be the most courageous of all men and he didn't fight.
I think it a mistake to personify God into human terms. Jesus showed us how to approach God from the flesh, but I believe God is nothing like a man. I believe God is something akin to the truth, the force that governs all interactions and creations. Something completely abstract to our kind of thinking, so to say that God is angry and will pour out the bowls and kill people and use that as a justification for us doing it is wrong. I believe Old Testament viewing of God as an angry God was also putting a human personification to events. But if you think of the events of the world as a natural cycling and often times deadly serious of events (sometimes calm waters, sometimes Tsunami's) then you stop placing motivations upon the events governed by God.
I believe the Jewish Holocaust was a human tragedy, but God wasn't affected in the slightest by this. We may see horrific crimes of human ovens, but God sees souls that are not affected because they are blameless. Again, our bodies are but cars and our souls are the engine. A car may get beat to hell, while the engine lives on.
Think about how crass Jesus sounded when he told that man to not bury his father, saying let the dead bury their own dead. Yikes!! That just sounds cold. But what Jesus is saying is our body is nothing without the soul. To defend the body at the expense of your soul... now that is a tragedy.
I think the reason there is not persecution in US and Europe with the christian is probably b/c we have accepted the beast of the bible as christianity. In Revelation it talks about the destruction of Babylon and a woman riding the beast and her daughters. I suggest that is most of the US religions. We are definitely doing something wrong in christian faith if we aren't being persecuted. I suggest it may have to do with the acceptance of the deception. All through the gospels Jesus warns about being deceived. IT must be a great deception! I believe it is the acceptance of the 7th day vs 1st day worship and idolatry. How can so many be wrong? Well, let me say only a remnant survive tribulation for a good reason. MOst everyone is wrong and because everyone is doing it everyone think then it must be right.....wrong! I have heard all the arguments about changing the sabbath and so far i'm not convinced. First of all the Roman Catholic Church say it is their MARK of authority and God says his seal is 7th day rest as His Authority. WHo do you believe? NOw there is all this to do about the Shroud of Turin and I believe that is the image of the beast. I believe the tabernacle planted in prophecy is the same one planted by the Pope in May this year. Everyone needs to get a grip on this religion and realize it is the beast.
I think the reason there is not persecution in US and Europe with the christian is probably b/c we have accepted the beast of the bible as christianity. In Revelation it talks about the destruction of Babylon and a woman riding the beast and her daughters. I suggest that is most of the US religions. We are definitely doing something wrong in christian faith if we aren't being persecuted. I suggest it may have to do with the acceptance of the deception. All through the gospels Jesus warns about being deceived. IT must be a great deception! I believe it is the acceptance of the 7th day vs 1st day worship and idolatry. How can so many be wrong? Well, let me say only a remnant survive tribulation for a good reason. MOst everyone is wrong and because everyone is doing it everyone think then it must be right.....wrong! I have heard all the arguments about changing the sabbath and so far i'm not convinced. First of all the Roman Catholic Church say it is their MARK of authority and God says his seal is 7th day rest as His Authority. WHo do you believe? NOw there is all this to do about the Shroud of Turin and I believe that is the image of the beast. I believe the tabernacle planted in prophecy is the same one planted by the Pope in May this year. Everyone needs to get a grip on this religion and realize it is the beast.
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