What We're Praying/Talking About
Our faith in action, or our small contribution in trying to apply what we're taught in Hebrews 5-6 and James 2:17-26 for the benefit of our dear brothers and sisters within the Body of Christ...
Persecution More Than Plausible; It's Biblical
Thank you to everyone who took the time to comment on the controversial issue of how we're expected to respond to the coming One World Government system of oppression. I thank God for bringing such a diverse and international community of believers together to share their unique insights. If you want on in the discussion be sure to check out the Comments Section.I must say that your fellowship through the Comments Section and via email has brought clarity to this debate (at least for me). The truth is so simple, but it's the harsh reality of that truth that I think gives most of us problems. We've never been called to experience -- even remotely -- the types of things we know are coming just for believing in Jesus Christ, and so we can't fathom any reality that flings us into the face of hard-core religious persecution.While I still believe in a literal Rapture event, I think the responsible thing to do is to prepare spiritually as if we expect to face some sort of intense persecution for our faith in Jesus Christ to some extent. I don't believe that's exhibiting a lack of faith in the "escape" do you? What escape?Luke 21:36 (KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man (emphasis mine)
I'm also not above admitting that I may be wrong in my interpretation and understanding of what this escape constitutes. By that, I simply mean that some have argued that while they certainly believe God's Word (as in this verse above) about there being an actual, future escape, they caution that perhaps this escape is something else entirely, and not what we commonly think when we connect it to the Rapture.
They say that this verse could simply mean that when the Tribulation begins and the Saints are persecuted worldwide for their faith, the escape could simply be God providing His supernatural protection over us by giving us a way out of even the most hopeless situations that we'll encounter (think of Paul and Silas shackled in prison, the earthquake, and their miraculous release that we read about in Acts 16).
All that is to say that I don't think believing in an "escape" (whatever form that escape takes) and believing that the Body of Christ (as it exists today) will have to face brutal persecution soon are mutually exclusive. You can certainly hold to both positions -- and should -- because both are Biblical.
So, in my follow-up study to this entire issue of the appropriate response by Christians to tyranny (see "Defiance Or Disillusionment?"), I came across a commentary written just a few weeks ago in late August by Greg Musselman published over at The Voice of the Martyrs Persecuted Church Weblog. I want to include this short, but hard-hitting piece in its entirety in an effort to keep this discussion going.
"Are You Taking Bible Verses Out Of Context?"
By Greg Musselman
Thursday, August 27, 2009
"Context, context, context" is what one of my professors said many times during my three years at Bible College. He warned the class that if he ever heard one of us preaching and taking the passages out of context we would be in big trouble! In the twenty years that have passed since I graduated I’ve tried to always remember the context of the scriptures I’m teaching and preaching from. Who wrote it? Who is the intended audience? Why was it written?
In my almost ten years of involvement with The Voice of the Martyrs Canada, I often remind the churches I have spoken at in Canada that much of the New Testament was written by persecuted Christians to persecuted Christians. Think about the letters of Paul, Peter and John. Jesus also spent a lot of time teaching his followers about what they would face by preaching His message. He promised that they would suffer for following Him!
So why don’t we hear more about suffering for righteousness sake during our Sunday morning services, or from our favorite radio or TV preacher if it is one of the main themes of the New Testament?
Let me suggest that perhaps because most Christians in the West have little or no experience with persecution it affects our ability to deal properly with the passages that speak about persecution when we read them and especially when we are trying to preach on them from the pulpit in some sort of relevant way. As our CEO Glenn Penner says, in our pursuit of relevance, we end up being less than accurate in how we handle the Word of God.
Here is just one example of what I am talking about. When Peter wrote to the Christians who had been scattered throughout much of Asia Minor due to persecution, he encouraged them to stand strong in their faith in the face of the persecution that was the consequence of their decision to follow Jesus. He wrote: "In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith - of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire – may prove to be genuine and may result in praise, even glory and honour when Jesus Christ is revealed" (1 Peter 1: 6, 7).
In most sermons I’ve heard on this passage, it is used to exhort believers to stand firm in their faith in all of life’s problems and difficulties such as sickness, financial crises, family issues, and the like. While I understand why preachers in a society where there isn’t intense persecution would use those verses that way, it is not, however, their original context or meaning. In the context, the passage referred specifically to suffering for being a Christian. In fact, the context of most of the verses that address suffering in the New Testament is one of suffering not because of sin or because we live in a fallen world but because of righteousness.
Like most Christians in Canada, I’ve never faced the level of persecution of those we serve as a mission. I’ve never even lost of a job or been held back from a promotion because of my faith in Christ. That does not, however, give us the liberty to misapply the passages that deal with suffering in the New Testament.
Bold, but convicting because it's true.
Look, I've never been one to subscribe to the thought that As Christians, we all must suffer because Christ suffered because that seemed completely foreign to me, or that you're somehow not a genuine Christian if you don't suffer some trials in life, but how can we ignore the truth of what God's Word really says?
We will suffer because the Bible says so. We will face trials the closer we're walking with the Lord. It's when we stray from the righteous path that the suffering and the trials cease. I guess it makes sense when you think it through apart from the Biblical proof. I mean, it stands to reason that the closer we are to God, the farther we are from Satan. Why wouldn't Satan ramp up his attacks on us to try and "get us back in the fold with him" -- he most certainly will as much as God allows him to!
Except for one small fact. What Satan intends to use to destroy us, God intends to use to sanctify us! God allows such trials and tribulations knowing they will perfect our faith even further and bring us that much closer to Him; it has the reverse effect.

So, how to with connect this with today's discussion? Corrie Ten Boom, a Dutch Christian Holocaust survivor who helped many Jews escape the Nazis during World War II, was once quoted as saying, "Hold loosely to the things of this life, so that if God requires them of you, it will be easy to let them go." Before she died she told Corrie, "There is no pit so deep that God's love is not deeper still." Corrie was released on Christmas Day of December 1944. In the movie The Hiding Place, Ten Boom narrates the section on her release from camp, saying that she later learned that her release had been a clerical error! The women prisoners her age in the camp were killed the week following her release. She said, "God does not have problems. Only plans."
Great advice and an even more relevant story that can provide us with so much valuable insight about the dark times ahead for us. You know, I gotta admit that whatever He did to me over the course of that last month, when I was on hiatus taking a break from all of this and sorting out my own despicable spiritual condition, it's been a complete adjustment! I can't say that I've even gotten used to this "new" me yet.
In fact, there have been a few occasions where I wished the Holy Spirit wouldn't have opened my eyes so widely because I can now see many things that I had wrong, had overlooked, or had simply ignored. And you know what? It can be frightening at first because it's all so new to you especially when it comes to this topic of religious persecution.
Take this entire study for example. I go on and on about how God's Word needs to be read, digested, and understood so that we can apply it to our daily lives and any situation that might come up. Furthermore, I stress how we need to take the literal interpretation of the Scriptures over any symbolic or secondary meaning too, and despite all of that, here I was blatantly (willingly) ignoring those portions of Scripture that had anything to say about persecution and our response to such persecution just because it all made me feel uncomfortable and I couldn't quite reconcile it with my own concept of what the Christian lifestyle was supposed to be like.
I have to say that this all seems so clear to me now and I know that's not going to be a popular admission. How am I supposed to just turn a blind eye to all of this though? The evidence is a bit daunting! Plus, I was the one who sought, and I was the one who came knocking looking for answers on this subject because I was wondering what I should do if I ever get a knock at my front door in the middle of the night with an all-expenses-paid trip for me and my family to Camp FEMA in Buffalo, NY. Of course, I shouldn't be the least bit surprised that this happened:
Luke 11:9 (KJV) And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. (emphasis mine)
Where do we go from here? Well, I think the best course of action is for all of us to seek the Lord's guidance on this and get our spiritual house in order just as we've all been trying to do for weeks now. A special thanks to Peniell for sharing the following link to a commentary that sheds some additional light on all of this in case you're inclined to go deeper with this study:
The Sword or the Cross?
The opening line of that article gives us some idea of what we're in for:
When Peter used the sword to keep Jesus from going to the cross, He said, "All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Even though the true saints will not agree with much that is about to happen in this world, they will not take "the sword" of man and break their covenant with God as the apostates and their leadership will. God’s plan for His people is demonstrated by Jesus.
Later on, we read:
Tertullus, speaking against Paul’s revolution, said, "For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of insurrections (revolutions) among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5). Jesus and Paul’s revolution was to use the Word to separate the chosen from the carnal church. Neither of them had anything to do with wrestling with a flesh and blood beast system. That was the harlot’s revolution. We are to be patriots of the Lord’s Kingdom, not the U.S. Like Jesus, "My kingdom is not of this world."
Heed these warnings in the Bible and do not listen to those who come as "patriots" to stir up Christians to rebel against this country. Those who do, God will destroy by the hand of this government. In this way, God will cleanse His body of those that refuse to obey by going to their cross.
Also, this is not a salvation issue, which is to say that I'm not for an instant suggesting that if you don't respond this way when things get bad you somehow won't end up in Heaven. I'm just trying to make sense of what I'm just seeing now for the first time despite reading these things many times over.
Yes, innocent Christians in our day (you and I might fall into this category) will be falsely accused as rebels and imprisoned or even killed. If that's our fate, then who are we to try to change it? If God has ordained such a fate for us, then to rebel and resist would be an act of disobedience and showing a lack of faith in Him and a complete rejection of His will for our lives.
Who are we to assume that God won't supernaturally protect us when that time comes as long as we live obediently and trust Him and His Word? Perhaps the coming escape is God blinding the eyes of those who come for us so that they won't see is when they arrive to look for us. What does it say about us and our faith if we doubt that He has the power to perform such a miracle should He choose to? Many will fight to keep from going into captivity, but only God determines if one needs this for their maturing:
Revelation 13:9-10 (KJV) If any man hath an ear, let him hear. If any man [is] for captivity, into captivity he goeth: if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Only God gives authority to the beast to bring His people into bondage or death. Again, we should not put it beyond God’s ability to supernaturally hide those who do not need more crucifixion. To clarify, by "crucifixion" I mean to say that there are a good number of us who still need to go through the fiery furnace so that we can be purified as part of the sanctification process.
I will end by restating that I still believe in the Rapture, but I am open to the possibility that the coming escape can possibly take a completely different form. I am going to try to prepare myself and my family spiritually as if we will face intense persecution just in case. I will try to nurture a faith that believes it's possible for God to perform miracles even in this day and age and in these types of situations. I will pray for my Heavenly Father to grant me His grace and wisdom to know how to respond appropriately.
I pray that we all continue to seek the Lord for His wisdom so that our response will be consistent with the Scriptures when our time comes.
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17 Comments:
I believe the traditional view on the pre-trib rapture. Yet, we may have to endure persecution just because of the times we are living in and heading towards. However, Jesus said that the devil would not prevail against His church and in Revelation it speaks of saints that are being prevailed against. These are people Jew and Gentile that come to faith after the rapture that are here struggling through that horrible time and persecution called (Jacobs trouble). This is the period where the Lord is most specifically dealing with unbelieving Israel. Many Jews (including the 144,000) and many gentiles will come to faith in Christ during that time. That is when the enemy will prevail against them in persecution but still it is all part of the plan of redemption that God can reach as many as possible no matter the situation and Christ will return to set up His Kingdom and He shall Reign Forever and Ever and Ever, Amen. Whether we are saved now and go in the rapture before the tribulation or you are a person who comes to faith during the tribulation, His Plan shall stand and of His Kingdom there shall be no end and that is where we have to keep our thoughts, on His Victory. He is the Victor and at some point we will be with Him and we shall see Him as He is because we shall be like Him. Hallelujah! We are victors too, no matter what. Let us all keep our eyes on that fact. Every day no matter what we have to face, We are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. How great a Love He has for us. The situations we go through day to day and the thoughts of what we may experience in the future because of the evil days cannot compare to the Glory we shall experience in Him. I don't want to suffer and I don't want anyone else to either but more than that I want to be with Him because I love Him because He first loved me. Our King is an awesome King. I hope anyone who reads this will be uplifted in their hearts to yearn for Him and to know He always fulfills His word. He is faithful and true and for those that belong to Him or will belong to Him, we just have to look into His word that is like looking through His eyes to His heart that bursts with love for us. Let's encourage each other as we see the day approaching. I love you guys here and ask for your continued prayers. Sometimes this is the only place I can share as even believing family members sometimes think we're (too overboard) etc., but I believe we just desire to know Him and be with Him. Soon and very soon we will see our King. God Bless. L.
Jred, as happens a lot (especially recently) your posts resonate with the things that are coming to my heart from our blessed Lord.
First of all, I agree that it's not irresponsible (or lacking in faith) to prepare for anything we might face as followers of Christ. We were told to "occupy" until He returns and that's part and parcel of being a good steward of the things He put us in charge of, but more importantly, our faith. We should always keep watch and stretch ourselves in Him to remain strong. We do not know what trials the enemy may have for us and it's best to prepare the fruits of the Spirit and the Armor of God no matter what so that we can stand when the time comes.
As far as the sword vs. the cross...I too have realized a lot lately that it's about standing, withstanding, and being rooted in Him more than it is to aggressively fighting. I think the world is getting so dark now that we need to be rooted in His word and Him so that people can find His goodness and love without chasing down someone who is out stirring up the hornet's nest. I'm not saying that all have not been called to it, but I feel in my heart that the battle has been won if we but stand (and especially not bow to another).
But your post itself has me. I apologize with this being so long, but like I said, it really resonates. Two themes that have popped up in discussion, sermons, music, Bible studies in my life lately is God's goodness and belief.
I think these are tied inextricably together. But He's been really impressing on me to remember no matter what happens He is still Good. Nothing on this earth or above it or below it can change the one simple, pure fact. He is God and He is Good and He is Love--no matter what I'm going through. And belief. To believe with every fiber of my being and to share that with others so they may not simply just ask forgiveness of sins but also truly believe that Christ is the Way The Truth and The Life. So many people say they do, but when push comes to shove, they have doubts in areas of their lives that their faith buckles and collapses in the heat of the fire. It is so important more than ever to acknowledge those areas and pray over them to fortify your faith in Him. Ask God to show us what we need built up in order to stand for Him and be His light.
I believe God has a plan and an escape for us, no matter what it is (His ways are not ours) and I pray every day to have my faith opened up in HIm and fortified by the Holy Spirit for the coming days. I pray that we can all mature in Him and become that strong body He desires.
Jeff,
I believe you have misinterpreted the bible verses concerning Rev.13:9-10. Correct me if I am wrong but it appears that you believe that if you pick up a sword (gun) or whatever to protect yourself or your family (in this end time scenario) and kill someone in the process that your punishment will be to die by the sword (gun--whatever). i.e.-"he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword". I believe this to be completely false.
Let me take an excerpt from a Zion's fire article I read recently to make my point. Excerpt from article inside quotes.
[[[ And then, suddenly, in the midst of the discussion of the dragon (Satan) and the beast (the antichrist) and the persecution of the sons and daughters of God, John, as it were, blurts out these words: "If any man have an ear, let him hear" (v.9). It is an immediate reminder of Matthew's comment in the midst of the Lord's teaching on the Great Tribulation. Matthew blurted out,"whoso readeth, let him understand" (Matthew 24:15). In both instances,the idea is this: The subject being discussed is critically important; therefore, make every effort to understand it, because it is truth that Satan will make every effort to keep the Church from understanding.
And suddenly we are given a promise of righteous vindication and divine justice with these words: "He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword"(v.9a) Here is the ultimate manifestation of capital punishment. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.There are no excuses--there are no exceptions. Those who have persecuted or slain God's sons or daughters will suddenly have the roles reversed. What the unsaved have done to the believers God will do to them. It's not a matter of revenge; it is a matter of justice.]]]
So what God's referring to in Rev.13:9-10 is what he will do to the persecutors not we Christians who are trying to protect ourselves. So in my humble opinion we are free to put on the "full armor of God" and the full armor of your gun cabinet.
John
I can definitely detect the 'new you' and sense that you have been with the Lord. Our walk is progressive and these times of introspection and growth never ever stop. We never reach the pinnacle on this earth. We just grow and grow :-)
We believe in the blessed hope ... the rapture. That should make us no less prepared to suffer persecution in any age. God, in His wisdom, has not revealed one minute of the details of the future to us, so as we await His return we always need to expect persecution.
As the Word tells us, "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." We should not worry nor fear, but patiently trust Him for everything we need for the present hour. His grace is sufficient for whatever He allows to come our way!
Jeff,
I believe you have misinterpreted the bible verses concerning Rev.13:9-10. Correct me if I am wrong but it appears that you believe that if you pick up a sword (gun) or whatever to protect yourself or your family (in this end time scenario) and kill someone in the process that your punishment will be to die by the sword (gun--whatever). i.e.-"he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword". I believe this to be completely false.
Let me take an excerpt from a Zion's fire article I read recently to make my point. Excerpt from article inside quotes.
[[[ And then, suddenly, in the midst of the discussion of the dragon (Satan) and the beast (the antichrist) and the persecution of the sons and daughters of God, John, as it were, blurts out these words: "If any man have an ear, let him hear" (v.9). It is an immediate reminder of Matthew's comment in the midst of the Lord's teaching on the Great Tribulation. Matthew blurted out,"whoso readeth, let him understand" (Matthew 24:15). In both instances,the idea is this: The subject being discussed is critically important; therefore, make every effort to understand it, because it is truth that Satan will make every effort to keep the Church from understanding.
And suddenly we are given a promise of righteous vindication and divine justice with these words: "He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword"(v.9a) Here is the ultimate manifestation of capital punishment. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.There are no excuses--there are no exceptions. Those who have persecuted or slain God's sons or daughters will suddenly have the roles reversed. What the unsaved have done to the believers God will do to them. It's not a matter of revenge; it is a matter of justice.]]]
So what God's referring to in Rev.13:9-10 is what he will do to the persecutors not we Christians who are trying to protect ourselves. So in my humble opinion we are free to put on the "full armor of God" and the full armor of your gun cabinet.
John
It is indeed so (that God will render justice to those who persecute us)-but judgment begins first at the House of God, and only AFTER He has judged His own, will He bring judgment on the rod that He used to chasten us. It has always been this way (see the book of Judges).
It is not by MY might, nor by MY power, but BY HIS SPIRIT that the Lord's house shall be built. When one seeks to justify the arm of flesh by using the name of God, one is still no less different than the world who justifies their own actions with like justifications (gods of their own mind, i.e., SELF).
Saul was crowned King because they rejected God as their king, desiring a man instead, primarily because they were tired of constantly being chastened and judged by God during the time of Judges. Saul became a type of all the kingdoms of men (collectively, 'babylon'). The Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul when Saul chose to do what was right in his OWN eyes (the arm of flesh). David was anointed king, and knew without a doubt that God had ordained for him to be so. Did David suddenly take up arms to enforce what he knew to be his 'right' to the throne? Did he ever, even once, lift a finger toward Saul to hurt him? Did he ever, even once, bring a railing accusation toward him? Not once. David waited. For he knew that it is GOD WHO SETS UP THE RULERS of a nation...and therefore it is GOD WHO REMOVES THEM. David knew his destiny (as do we, for we are called to be RULERS in the Kingdom Age that is right at the door), but David RESPECTED THE AUTHORITY PLACED OVER HIM UNTIL THEN (as we should do) and allowed GOD to work all things toward that end.
Whatever authority the Lord has placed over us (husband, employer, government, etc) understand that God has placed them there and if we fight against them then we are no less different than the jews who fought against the king of Babylon and refused to listen to Jeremiah when he told them to SUBMIT (for it was God who sent them to babylon and placed that yoke upon them). Every single one of them either perished or were taken captive. Those who 'were for captivity' (wanting to 'take captive' and defeat babylon) WENT INTO captivity (were captured themselves).
When David's son usurped the throne from him and he left weeping along the way, did he allow his men to strike down Shimei for the accusations and 'stones' he threw at him? Again, NO. His answer, is as ours should be..."If he curses, and THE LORD HAS TOLD HIM TO CURSE DAVID, then who shall say 'why have you done so?'"
Who are we to question the potter? If it is in the potter's design that I suffer for HIS NAMESAKE (His character exhibited in me, returning good for evil, submitting as unto the Lord), can I prevent it by even one ounce of flesh? And if I try, am I not condemning myself as a REBEL against the Lord God Himself? Be wise as serpents AND HARMLESS AS DOVES. We are told that should persecution come, FLEE. But no where are we told to FIGHT.
Should we not TRUST HIM and believe that if we are to suffer, then God has a good reason for it? Perhaps your strong faith in the midst of persecution is not for your own refinement, but rather as a bold witness to those who see it and who by YOUR FAITH are converted... Will you glory in such suffering if you knew this to be the case?
We don't know what God's plan is for us in detail, but we can have faith that HE KNOWS and know that HE IS GOOD and we should TRUST HIM COMPLETELY. It it was the Lord who laid down his life (not because of the 'apparent' power of base men). We should endeavor to build up our faith so that we can say as the three hebrews did -- "Oh great king (ruler of this world), if it be so (if God chooses to), then our God whom we serve IS WELL ABLE to deliver us... and if not (if He chooses NOT to), then let it be known that we shall honor our God and refuse to worship any other."
This is the ONLY time we may refuse to obey an authority God has placed over us... if we are commanded place another on the throne of our "temple" (mind) as God.
I would direct you to the blog: http://www.the-end-time.blogspot.com (specifically her last 3 posts) for Elizabeth's instruction with regard to the EU and the Rapture, which spoke to my spirit. She is a spirit-inspired writer that God is using in these days.
Kim
Amen.
All I need to know on this subject is encapsulated with the Easter story. While on Earth, we need to be open to God's will and plan, even if that leads us to physical death. Our bodies are the car, the engine is our soul and the Holy Spirit is the gas. God does not care about our bodies. God can make bodies from the dust, but he does care about our soul. When we cling to saving our bodies, that will lead us to decisions where we may lose our soul. This is not an ESCAPE from persecution, but an escape of eternal damnation.
I know that we see through a glass darkly, so it is hard sometimes to know for sure what the Lord's will is. Maybe if your faith is at that level, you can sit back and allow God to step in. Although I know that God is able, sometimes we play a role in our lives also. The bible says contend for the fatherless, help the widow etc.. Man is called to do these things, although God certainly can. Once again, I ask, what would you do if a burglar breaks into your house and threatens your family? Will you respond as has been suggested, or will you protect your family? Where is the dividing line between protecting your house from a thief and killer, and protecting them from Luciferic servants of the NWO?
In all of the examples we see listed to turn the other cheek, it is in comparison to individual men preaching the gospel, contending for the faith. I am not saying we join a revolution to retake the country, God forbid. However, I am saying, that we unite as a body to protect ourselves and our loved ones. Fire comes out of the two witnesses mouth to slay those who would try to kill them before their mission is done. What is the difference between that and a gun? Is it not still a weapon? Yes, it is by the power of God, but they do defend themselves. Someone explain that difference to me please. It is hard for me to accept this passive role idea.
Jesus set the example for us, and we as Christians are to follow it. So, which example did Jesus set for us?
It's really quite simple...
Part 1 of 2 posts:
Rom 8:1-21 KJV
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Part 2 of 2 posts:
Rom 8:22-39 KJV
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
BLESS YOU HOLY FATHER IN HEAVEN!!!
you have finally removed the vail from his eyes and he is starting to see and hear!
jred GOD has allowed you to grasp onto the mysteries of heaven. you are now headed in the right direction, down that narrow path thru the narrow gate!!!
praise the LORD JESUS CHRIST!!! continue to study with child like
curiosity and much more will be shone to you. mark my word I am living proof! and he is still revieling truths to me all the time.
this was a great article, except for your reluctance to let go of the rapture.
keep up the good work and may GOD bless you !!!!!!!
john
JRed, you are on fire for the Lord! Yes, persecution is not only biblical, it's at the foundation of our faith. How can anyone calling themselves a born-again Christian argue to the contrary? The atoning work of the cross is not only complete and sufficient, the bible says it's the fate that awaits all believers as well - and NOT just metaphorically speaking. Jesus commands us to take up our own cross and leave EVERYTHING behind if need be to follow his example.
"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." LUKE 17:33
Which leads me to the second issue addressed here: the rapture of the church. I'm still researching this, but from what I can tell the pre-trib theory is NOT biblically supported; in fact it only gained popularity in the late 19th century among dispensationalists. Instead we are told repeatedly throughout both the OT and NT that the dead in Christ shall rise first at the last trumpet/at the last trump/on the last day, and only then we shall be caught up in the air and be with the Lord forever. Brothers and sisters, nowhere in scripture does it say our Saviour comes back TWICE. Let us not cleave to the things of this world but to the word of God.
Jred, I was given these scriptures this past summer. I have been praying for the LORD to help us to stand when things heat-up. I am recognizing that I am utterly useless without his strength. This is not a new thought but it has gone to the deeper levels than in the early years of my walk with the LORD. I pray especially for you younger folks still raising your young children. I know you know this but, he is a strength in times of trouble, he always hears your anguished cries...offer him your praises, your broken spirit he'll not despise...HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, is our GOD! Shalom
King said,
"However, I am saying, that we unite as a body to protect ourselves and our loved ones. Fire comes out of the two witnesses mouth to slay those who would try to kill them before their mission is done. What is the difference between that and a gun? Is it not still a weapon? Yes, it is by the power of God, but they do defend themselves. Someone explain that difference to me please. It is hard for me to accept this passive role idea."
There is nothing wrong, imho, with uniting with fellow believers. But do not put your FAITH in any man (or men, or group) ... Didn't Elisha ask God to open the eyes of his attendant so that he could be strengthened in faith to believe that GOD'S ARMY was greater than any man's? THAT is the level of faith we should strive to attain. But do we need to “see” them? Or can we believe without seeing?
To your question...
FIRE (as defined Scripturally) is represented as the presence of GOD HIMSELF (He is a consuming fire, yet the burning bush shows that He can inhabit and yet not destroy). It is His WORD ("Is not my WORD like a consuming fire?" Jer. 23:29). And it is within His SAINTS..those in His right hand, the same hand in which the consuming fire of God'S LAW resides (as lightning) is held:
Deut. 33:2 and 3,
2 The LORD came from Sinai, and dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, and He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; at [or, “in”] His right hand there was flashing lightning [esh-dath, “FIRE-law”] for them. 3 Indeed, He loves the people; all Thy holy ones are in Thy hand, and they followed in Thy steps; everyone receives of Thy words.
The King James Version is more accurate in this instance, for it reads, “From His right hand went a FIERY LAW for them.” The Hebrew term is esh, “fire,” and dath, “law.” So the text is worded to show us that the divine law is a fire that God gave to the people.
Furthermore, Moses says in the next verse that “All Thy holy ones [or, saints] are in Thy hand.” If the fiery law is in God’s hand, and the saints are also in His hand, it follows that the saints of God have been given the divine nature of this holy fire. They not only believe His word, but they BECOME the word, even as Jesus Christ Himself was the Word (John 1:1).
So we see that the nature of FIRE, defined Scripturally, has quite a different connotation than what the carnal mind conceives.
With that in mind, is it not clear that "His Word" is sharper than a two-edged sword that cuts away the flesh? Does it not cause the flesh to DIE? Indeed... And so when we read that "out of their mouth came fire, and by this manner they shall be killed", can it not also be read in a different light? One which says (as truly Good News would) that a TRUE WORD or LAWFUL DECREE that comes from the mouth of one of His witnesses, is a Word that will indeed ‘kill?’
There has always been TWO SWORDS in which God has given us a right to choose... Those who would advocate picking up the physical sword to fight, are those who have "drawn back" from the truth that has been delivered to US for THIS AGE. Where the Israelites of old in the age past were not even aware of the use of the Sword of the Spirit (and thus chose the ONLY sword they knew), WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN the BETTER choice through knowledge of the Sword of the Spirit that, through DEATH, brings LIFE (death to the old man, but life to the Spirit man). Now here is our example...
On the day of Pentecost in the days of Moses, the Israelites had sinned by worshipping the golden calf-- and Moses told them to 'take up the sword and slay every one of them'... 3000 mortal men DIED a PHYSICAL death that day. They used the only sword they knew.
However, on the day of Pentecost after the Resurrected Christ, the 120 in the upper room TOOK UP THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT and 3000 souls were SAVED that day (souls stricken with grief and repentance-- the old man in 3000 DIED that day, but the new man was thus made alive). Let us choose the right sword….OUR lives may surely depend upon it.
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