My new job has me traveling a lot these days throughout the state of New York. In some cases, it's through places and towns I never knew existed just a few hours away from my home.
As someone who's constantly watching and warning family and friends about what MIGHT HAPPEN as a result of numerous prophetically relevant things going on in the world, you can imagine my reluctance and trepidation over having to leave my family to embark on a 3-day stay in Binghamton, NY for a Job Fair at Binghamton University on the eve of February 11th -- or the day that Iran will "punch" the West.
Normally, such threats from Iran are empty, but this time there seems to be so much "chatter" from other sources (not to mention various "suspicious" news reports and wacky H.A.A.R.P.-like weather systems and earthquakes) to suggest that something significant MIGHT HAPPEN tomorrow.
That being said, as I drove along the dimly lit, winding roads of Central New York on my way here tonight my mind had a field day thinking about all the "What If?" scenarios that I could wake up to in the morning. No, it wasn't a fearful experience, but it was a sobering one.
In fact, the sobering realization that I've taken my family for granted (to an extent) during all the time that I've been blessed to have been able to spend with them day-in-and-day-out over the past 2-3 years weighed heavily on my mind this evening. Perhaps it was heightened by the thought of what it would feel like to be roughly 200 miles away should the unthinkable happen tomorrow. Needless to say, my initial reaction would be one of complete and total helplessness until I remembered who I am -- who we are as a family -- in Jesus Christ.
I pray that when and if that time should ever come in my lifetime that I'll rely on what has gotten me this far in my 30 years here -- faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord, Savior, and Deliverer. Yes, I still believe in a literal "escape from the things that are coming upon this earth" as it's recorded in the Book of Luke. Whether or not this refers to a literal Rapture event like I believe that it does remains to be seen (I actually lean towards the "Three Raptures" viewpoint myself), and some might argue that if "the unthinkable" that I mentioned earlier is supposed to be synonymous with "the beginning of the Tribulation", then I shouldn't spend much time at all thinking about the "What If?" scenarios because we'll be outta here anyway.
God I hope so! Believing what I do about the Three Raptures perspective being the most compelling and appropriate Biblical explanation as to why there's so much bitter and fierce debate within the Body of Christ over this issue, I can only pray that I'm "counted worthy" to go in the "First Rapture" since those are the two words that precede the others quoted from that same passage taken from the Book of Luke and excerpted a few sentences ago.
But I don't want to turn this into a Rapture debate even though I know that there are some who will take this as an opening to do so. Instead, I wanted to share my deep, personal thoughts about things as I had them tonight during the trip here. I wholeheartedly believe that we are close folks -- even if tomorrow comes and goes just like Superbowl Sunday did. We all know what God's holy Word as recorded in the Holy Bible tells us is going to happen. One day, some day soon I'm sure (tomorrow maybe!), there will be people like you and me alive on this planet who study and talk about end times prophecy, but who maybe don't really think that it could all actually unfold in their lifetime even though it has to at some point. Who's to say that we're not that generation?
Cherish what you have. Cherish what you don't have. The reality is that what you "like" or "dislike" about your life is the wrong way to go about living it. If you truly believe that God is in control of all things, then how can you not view every aspect of your life in the same way? I'm not sure why I felt the need to write that because it seems a little out of place, but perhaps someone will get something from it.
I'll leave you all with something my eye spotted tonight during the final leg of my journey. In succession, I saw the following sign posts on the expressway:
ROAD SIGN #1:
Jerusalem Hills
ROAD SIGN #2:
Church St
Water St
Exit 56
See, these are the types of "observations" I'm always talking about. To those who go through life without God this would mean absolutely nothing. Sure, they might notice that the words on those two signs have a religious theme to them, but that's probably where their thoughts on the pairing of these two road signs in succession would end.
Me? Well, I'm cut from a different cloth. I couldn't believe my eyes quite frankly. First of all, I never knew that a place called "Jerusalem Hills" even existed here in New York, or that I would pass it on my way to Binghamton. But to see the very next sign after it read not just one street name but two ("Church St" and "Water St") just blew my mind!
Of course, the first thing I did when I was able to sign online was check to see if Bullinger had anything to say about the number 56 as it appears in the Bible. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Here's what I came up with on my own study time:
Psalm 56 (KJV)
------------------------------------------------------
1 Be merciful unto me, O God: for man would swallow me up; he fighting daily oppresseth me.
2 Mine enemies would daily swallow me up: for they be many that fight against me, O thou most High.
3 What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee.
4 In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.
5 Every day they wrest my words: all their thoughts are against me for evil.
6 They gather themselves together, they hide themselves, they mark my steps, when they wait for my soul.
7 Shall they escape by iniquity? in thine anger cast down the people, O God.
8 Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book?
9 When I cry unto thee, then shall mine enemies turn back: this I know; for God is for me.
10 In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word.
11 In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me.
12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee.
13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?
Saul was trying to kill David. David was a servant of Saul. David ran away to Gath. Gath was the town where Goliath had lived. Gath was one of the Philistine towns. The Philistines were enemies of Saul and David and their people. To us it seems crazy for David to go to Gath. When he got there, David thought it was crazy too! So he pretended to be crazy. This was because in times past people did not kill anyone that was crazy. But David was afraid. He told God about it in this psalm. You will find the story in 1 Samuel 21:10 to 22:2.
This psalm is also called "The Silent Dove Among Strangers", which is equally stunning to me given all the discussions and warnings being tossed around this week, tonight, and the final hours leading up to tomorrow.
The "Silent Dove" is David. He is silent. That means that he does not say anything to the Philistines. He is a dove. That means that he does not fight the Philistines while he is in Gath. He is among "strangers", or foreign people like the Philistines. In the psalm David speaks to God, he does not speak to the Philistines. He asks God to destroy the Philistines, and he does not try to do it himself.
The psalm is also a "miktam", which some Bible students think means "hidden meaning" or "special teaching" of some sort. It teaches us something. Simply put, it teaches us what to do when bad people are everywhere. We must be like David and pray to God. In that sense, it also reminds me of Matthew 10:28.
Yep, I'd say that this chapter spoke directly to my heart given what I was feeling on my way out here. How beautiful is that!?!
Next, I looked up any occurrences of the words "Jerusalem" and "hill" together in the texts. Here's what I found in that regard:
1 Kings 11:7 (KJV) Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that [is] before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
Isaiah 10:32 (KJV) As yet shall he remain at Nob that day: he shall shake his hand [against] the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem.
Those were the only places where both words showed up together in the King James Version. One deal's with Solomon's unchecked idolatry and the Mount of Olives. The other deals with similar themes as Psalm 56. Check out Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on this verse from Isaiah:
10:20-34 By our afflictions we may learn not to make creatures our confidence. Those only can with comfort stay upon God, who return to him in truth, not in pretence and profession only. God will justly bring this wasting away on a provoking people, but will graciously set bounds to it. It is against the mind and will of God, that his people, whatever happens, should give way to fear. God's anger against his people is but for a moment; and when that is turned from us, we need not fear the fury of man. The rod with which he corrected his people, shall not only be laid aside, but thrown into the fire. To encourage God's people, the prophet puts them in mind of what God had formerly done against the enemies of his church. God's people shall be delivered from the Assyrians. Some think it looks to the deliverance of the Jews out of their captivity; and further yet, to the redemption of believers from the tyranny of sin and Satan. And this, because of the anointing; for his people Israel's sake, the believers among them that had received the unction of Divine grace. And for the sake of the Messiah, the Anointed of God. Here is, ver. 28-34, a prophetical description of Sennacherib's march towards Jerusalem, when he threatened to destroy that city. Then the Lord, in whom Hezekiah trusted, cut down his army like the hewing of a forest. Let us apply what is here written, to like matters in other ages of the church of Christ. Because of the anointing of our great Redeemer, the yoke of every antichrist must be broken from off his church: and if our souls partake of the unction of the Holy Spirit, complete and eternal deliverances will be secured to us.
Lord, I think I've received the message loud and clear -- thank you.
Let's end by taking another quick look at where this all started. In my view, first I saw "Jerusalem Hills", then my eyes saw "Church St" before they saw "Water St".
So, in a sense, my thoughts on all of this tonight began with Jerusalem, continued with the Church, and that led to the Water. My long journey finally came to an end a short time after that uniquely symbolic trifecta. Well, isn't that interesting to say the least? I seem to recall a very popular Book that has a very similar story. Do you know what I'm referring to? Have you read it yourself? If not, R-U-N to your nearest bookstore and buy a copy ASAP!
Oh my! I just realized something else. Did I mention that the the length of the drive was 3.5 hours from Buffalo, NY to Binghamton University going the speed limit the whole length of the trip!?! Now where have we seen that number before in Scripture? Is this nothing more than the result of an over-active imagination or a little "head's up" of sorts? Whether anything of prophetic significance does or doesn't happen tomorrow doesn't really matter in answering that question because we already know EXACTLY what's coming upon the earth.
I'm sorry, but no one will ever convince me that my Heavenly Father is an impersonal God. It's unexpected experiences like this that prove to me how intimately involved He is in my life (and hopefully it's a reminder about how intimately involved He is in your life too).
The clock is ticking -- for now. Return to Him! Rediscover a relationship like no other! Keep looking up because tomorrow MIGHT be the day!
Share
As someone who's constantly watching and warning family and friends about what MIGHT HAPPEN as a result of numerous prophetically relevant things going on in the world, you can imagine my reluctance and trepidation over having to leave my family to embark on a 3-day stay in Binghamton, NY for a Job Fair at Binghamton University on the eve of February 11th -- or the day that Iran will "punch" the West.
Normally, such threats from Iran are empty, but this time there seems to be so much "chatter" from other sources (not to mention various "suspicious" news reports and wacky H.A.A.R.P.-like weather systems and earthquakes) to suggest that something significant MIGHT HAPPEN tomorrow.
That being said, as I drove along the dimly lit, winding roads of Central New York on my way here tonight my mind had a field day thinking about all the "What If?" scenarios that I could wake up to in the morning. No, it wasn't a fearful experience, but it was a sobering one.
In fact, the sobering realization that I've taken my family for granted (to an extent) during all the time that I've been blessed to have been able to spend with them day-in-and-day-out over the past 2-3 years weighed heavily on my mind this evening. Perhaps it was heightened by the thought of what it would feel like to be roughly 200 miles away should the unthinkable happen tomorrow. Needless to say, my initial reaction would be one of complete and total helplessness until I remembered who I am -- who we are as a family -- in Jesus Christ.
I pray that when and if that time should ever come in my lifetime that I'll rely on what has gotten me this far in my 30 years here -- faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord, Savior, and Deliverer. Yes, I still believe in a literal "escape from the things that are coming upon this earth" as it's recorded in the Book of Luke. Whether or not this refers to a literal Rapture event like I believe that it does remains to be seen (I actually lean towards the "Three Raptures" viewpoint myself), and some might argue that if "the unthinkable" that I mentioned earlier is supposed to be synonymous with "the beginning of the Tribulation", then I shouldn't spend much time at all thinking about the "What If?" scenarios because we'll be outta here anyway.
God I hope so! Believing what I do about the Three Raptures perspective being the most compelling and appropriate Biblical explanation as to why there's so much bitter and fierce debate within the Body of Christ over this issue, I can only pray that I'm "counted worthy" to go in the "First Rapture" since those are the two words that precede the others quoted from that same passage taken from the Book of Luke and excerpted a few sentences ago.
But I don't want to turn this into a Rapture debate even though I know that there are some who will take this as an opening to do so. Instead, I wanted to share my deep, personal thoughts about things as I had them tonight during the trip here. I wholeheartedly believe that we are close folks -- even if tomorrow comes and goes just like Superbowl Sunday did. We all know what God's holy Word as recorded in the Holy Bible tells us is going to happen. One day, some day soon I'm sure (tomorrow maybe!), there will be people like you and me alive on this planet who study and talk about end times prophecy, but who maybe don't really think that it could all actually unfold in their lifetime even though it has to at some point. Who's to say that we're not that generation?
Cherish what you have. Cherish what you don't have. The reality is that what you "like" or "dislike" about your life is the wrong way to go about living it. If you truly believe that God is in control of all things, then how can you not view every aspect of your life in the same way? I'm not sure why I felt the need to write that because it seems a little out of place, but perhaps someone will get something from it.
I'll leave you all with something my eye spotted tonight during the final leg of my journey. In succession, I saw the following sign posts on the expressway:
ROAD SIGN #1:
Jerusalem Hills
ROAD SIGN #2:
Church St
Water St
Exit 56
See, these are the types of "observations" I'm always talking about. To those who go through life without God this would mean absolutely nothing. Sure, they might notice that the words on those two signs have a religious theme to them, but that's probably where their thoughts on the pairing of these two road signs in succession would end.
Me? Well, I'm cut from a different cloth. I couldn't believe my eyes quite frankly. First of all, I never knew that a place called "Jerusalem Hills" even existed here in New York, or that I would pass it on my way to Binghamton. But to see the very next sign after it read not just one street name but two ("Church St" and "Water St") just blew my mind!
Of course, the first thing I did when I was able to sign online was check to see if Bullinger had anything to say about the number 56 as it appears in the Bible. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Here's what I came up with on my own study time:
Psalm 56 (KJV)
------------------------------------------------------
1 Be merciful unto me, O God: for man would swallow me up; he fighting daily oppresseth me.
2 Mine enemies would daily swallow me up: for they be many that fight against me, O thou most High.
3 What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee.
4 In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.
5 Every day they wrest my words: all their thoughts are against me for evil.
6 They gather themselves together, they hide themselves, they mark my steps, when they wait for my soul.
7 Shall they escape by iniquity? in thine anger cast down the people, O God.
8 Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book?
9 When I cry unto thee, then shall mine enemies turn back: this I know; for God is for me.
10 In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word.
11 In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me.
12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee.
13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?
Saul was trying to kill David. David was a servant of Saul. David ran away to Gath. Gath was the town where Goliath had lived. Gath was one of the Philistine towns. The Philistines were enemies of Saul and David and their people. To us it seems crazy for David to go to Gath. When he got there, David thought it was crazy too! So he pretended to be crazy. This was because in times past people did not kill anyone that was crazy. But David was afraid. He told God about it in this psalm. You will find the story in 1 Samuel 21:10 to 22:2.
This psalm is also called "The Silent Dove Among Strangers", which is equally stunning to me given all the discussions and warnings being tossed around this week, tonight, and the final hours leading up to tomorrow.
The "Silent Dove" is David. He is silent. That means that he does not say anything to the Philistines. He is a dove. That means that he does not fight the Philistines while he is in Gath. He is among "strangers", or foreign people like the Philistines. In the psalm David speaks to God, he does not speak to the Philistines. He asks God to destroy the Philistines, and he does not try to do it himself.
The psalm is also a "miktam", which some Bible students think means "hidden meaning" or "special teaching" of some sort. It teaches us something. Simply put, it teaches us what to do when bad people are everywhere. We must be like David and pray to God. In that sense, it also reminds me of Matthew 10:28.
Yep, I'd say that this chapter spoke directly to my heart given what I was feeling on my way out here. How beautiful is that!?!
Next, I looked up any occurrences of the words "Jerusalem" and "hill" together in the texts. Here's what I found in that regard:
1 Kings 11:7 (KJV) Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that [is] before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
Isaiah 10:32 (KJV) As yet shall he remain at Nob that day: he shall shake his hand [against] the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem.
Those were the only places where both words showed up together in the King James Version. One deal's with Solomon's unchecked idolatry and the Mount of Olives. The other deals with similar themes as Psalm 56. Check out Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on this verse from Isaiah:
10:20-34 By our afflictions we may learn not to make creatures our confidence. Those only can with comfort stay upon God, who return to him in truth, not in pretence and profession only. God will justly bring this wasting away on a provoking people, but will graciously set bounds to it. It is against the mind and will of God, that his people, whatever happens, should give way to fear. God's anger against his people is but for a moment; and when that is turned from us, we need not fear the fury of man. The rod with which he corrected his people, shall not only be laid aside, but thrown into the fire. To encourage God's people, the prophet puts them in mind of what God had formerly done against the enemies of his church. God's people shall be delivered from the Assyrians. Some think it looks to the deliverance of the Jews out of their captivity; and further yet, to the redemption of believers from the tyranny of sin and Satan. And this, because of the anointing; for his people Israel's sake, the believers among them that had received the unction of Divine grace. And for the sake of the Messiah, the Anointed of God. Here is, ver. 28-34, a prophetical description of Sennacherib's march towards Jerusalem, when he threatened to destroy that city. Then the Lord, in whom Hezekiah trusted, cut down his army like the hewing of a forest. Let us apply what is here written, to like matters in other ages of the church of Christ. Because of the anointing of our great Redeemer, the yoke of every antichrist must be broken from off his church: and if our souls partake of the unction of the Holy Spirit, complete and eternal deliverances will be secured to us.
Lord, I think I've received the message loud and clear -- thank you.
Let's end by taking another quick look at where this all started. In my view, first I saw "Jerusalem Hills", then my eyes saw "Church St" before they saw "Water St".
So, in a sense, my thoughts on all of this tonight began with Jerusalem, continued with the Church, and that led to the Water. My long journey finally came to an end a short time after that uniquely symbolic trifecta. Well, isn't that interesting to say the least? I seem to recall a very popular Book that has a very similar story. Do you know what I'm referring to? Have you read it yourself? If not, R-U-N to your nearest bookstore and buy a copy ASAP!
Oh my! I just realized something else. Did I mention that the the length of the drive was 3.5 hours from Buffalo, NY to Binghamton University going the speed limit the whole length of the trip!?! Now where have we seen that number before in Scripture? Is this nothing more than the result of an over-active imagination or a little "head's up" of sorts? Whether anything of prophetic significance does or doesn't happen tomorrow doesn't really matter in answering that question because we already know EXACTLY what's coming upon the earth.
I'm sorry, but no one will ever convince me that my Heavenly Father is an impersonal God. It's unexpected experiences like this that prove to me how intimately involved He is in my life (and hopefully it's a reminder about how intimately involved He is in your life too).
The clock is ticking -- for now. Return to Him! Rediscover a relationship like no other! Keep looking up because tomorrow MIGHT be the day!
Share
45 Comments:
JRED, heck yeah that is an opening to date pre and post trib theories. For God's sakes, why must we dance around it always and be afraid to discuss it. It will be the most important topic of them all, because if you believe in pre-trib and it doesn't happen, then we will lose the spiritual battle.
I think those that read Luke and come away with a pre-trib mentality are engaging in a heavy dose of wishful thinking. There are two parts to the end, tribulation due to man and God's response. We will all be subject to the tribulation due to man, but those that have faith will escape God's response.
You gloss over the most important line in Luke "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." This is the decision that Satan will thrust upon us. Worship him to "save" your earthly self and you will be subject to God's wrath later. We must deny ourselves AND NEVER DENY CHRIST, even if it means our physical death, and then our souls will be saved. This is a hard pill to swallow, so that is why we must talk about it. Otherwise Christians will reject it when the time comes.
I know you didn't want to get into this debate, but if not now, when?
Here we go again with the tribulation saint wanna be posts. YES anonymous, for those like you who believe it, it will be so, you'll be in the tribulation. If anyone lost their spiritual battle because they were wrong in either direction, their faith was never sufficiently strong enough anyway, so it's irrelevant.
Anyone notice that it's ALWAYS the post-tribbers running around spreading panic and fear (contrary to God's Word) and trying hard to convince others of their view while pre-tribbers seem far more content? It almost makes me think there will be more than one rapture as described in the book Three Raptures. Seems almost like poetic spiritual justice in that "you get what you hope and prepare for".
I think the pre trib rapture gets too much time. If it were to happen, then praise GOD. But I think we have to look at life and the Word as a whole. The most important thing is ones relationship with JESUS. We are called to bare through till the end. I can't help but think of all the believers before us who have gone through many trials and tribulations and died doing it. I realize the 'great tribulaton' is something different than our personal tribulations, but shouldn't our personal tribs prepare us for the great trib? I think we have to remember that it is GOD's will (whatever happens to you), not our wanting something to happen. I agree with the first poster.
Dee
I am so glad to see that God is illuminating Christian minds to the truth that THERE IS NO PRE-TRIBULALTION RAPTURE!!!
That LIE has had its day! Now in these last days God is preparing His church for the end.
I have an eBook titled "The Church Rapture" on my website. I know that your readers would enjoy it and learn from it.
It is the result of over 25 years of Bible prophecy study. It can be seen here: www.sureprophecy.com/church_rapture.html
Thanks and GOD BLESS..... Phil Jellerson, Preacher
JRED,
Thank you so much for what you wrote and the timing was perfect. It's just what I needed to hear, especially the Psalms 56.
You wrote:
"Cherish what you have. Cherish what you don't have. The reality is that what you "like" or "dislike" about your life is the wrong way to go about living it. If you truly believe that God is in control of all things, then how can you not view every aspect of your life in the same way? I'm not sure why I felt the need to write that because it seems a little out of place, but perhaps someone will get something from it."
I did. You wrote that for me. All I can say is thank you, dear brother.
Thank you for the encouragement. I was in Psalm 56 this morning myself and was taught a similar lesson. It never fails to amaze me how God leads His dear children along. The Lord bless you and keep your family safe as you are away from them during this time.
Wow, Armageddon. Sounds like you almost want post-tribers to "get what is coming to them." I mean no one any harm or send any hatred to anyone. Can you say the same?
Tribulation is a matter of perspective. For those who have faith, they will walk on through, but the trials will be real. Just look to all of the Apostles to see what is to come for those who follow Jesus. Jesus says himself we will be persecuted for his name sake.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Now you want some scripture. Here, please, please, please explain to me how the below fits in with a pre-trib rapture!!!
Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
So, who above is suffering, even to the point of death? The unrighteous? If so, then how will they be given the crown of life?
NO, NO, NO!!! The suffering they are talking about here is endured by those who believe in Jesus and will not submit to one world religion/government.
Your turn.
I will go one better Armageddon. Luke was used to argue for a pre-trib rapture, so I will use Luke to argue for a Post-trib rapture.
Luke 21:12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.
Luke 21:16 "But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death,
17 and you will be hated by all because of My name.
18 "Yet not a hair of your head will perish.
19 "By your endurance you will gain your lives."
So I ask you. Who is enduring? Who will be put to death? How can you read these things and think that there will be anything else but some form of tribulation, whether it be mid or post?
To all,
I am amazed at the people who would want to be here for Gods wrath when he most clearly says his Bride will Not suffer through it . I pray that you will not get what you wish for, but more and more Im thinking you might, if your not praying to escape the things that are to come you might just get to go through the great tribulation.I for one believe in what my loving Savior says in His Word, It will be the one event in history that will bring in all the evil or or as some say open the gates for satan and his demons to have there way with tthe ones left behind , the ones that are strong will be the tribulation saints, there will be many!! Pre-Trib and PROUD of IT!! Keep Spreading the Gospel our time is short ,Lord Jesus You are Amazing!!!
Maranatha
shannon
ATY,
No offense to you, but don't you think your statement
It almost makes me think there will be more than one rapture as described in the book Three Raptures. Seems almost like poetic spiritual justice in that "you get what you hope and prepare for".
Sounds a litle new age? The reality is that no one wants to go through the great trib or any other trib. But reality (tribulations and trials)come to us and we need to be prepared spiritually to handle those realities.
I think we need to ask ourselves, why do we want to escape the tribulation. Do we want to escape trouble or do we long/desire to be with our LORD? Cannot GOD hide you all the while going through tribulation? Let's say the great tribulation doesn't start until 50 years from now and a Christian starts going through something like what is happening in Haiti; how are you going to deal with that?
I think what a lot of tribbers believe, is that pre tribbbers are not handling every day realities; possibly not overcoming trials and tribulations right now. I am not saying this harshly, I am just guessing...
I believe we can learn a lot from each other if we can discuss issues and be patient...
Dee
Yeah, that's right, posties....Jesus wants a bride who's beaten and bloodied, and with a black eye! I think you're insulting Him by assuming He's a wife-beater!
God never - NEVER - deals with the church and with Israel at the same time. NEVER. That's why it's called "The Week of JACOB'S trouble." (Jacob being Israel.) What purpose would having His bride get the crap beaten out of her serve? To "purify" her? It's the blood of Jesus that washes away all sin!
Despite all the evidence to the contrary, some of you are SUPER CHRISTIANS!!! I hope you do get your desire and are left behind to endure the things coming upon the earth. Yeah, you're all gonna stand up to the AC and open a can of whoop-ass on him! HA! You'll be the first ones hiding under the bed screaming "MOMMY!!!"
I feel sorry for you - you don't know the tender heart of the true Lord Jesus, the one who loves you enough to suffer and die for you. Maybe - just maybe - you'll find Him before it's too late....if you'll set your pride aside long enough to do so, that is.
Wow, such hostility. Shannon, I never said I want to be here to experience the tribulation. That is pure silliness. If you insist on going to God's word for the answer on this (which I over course insist on as well) then how do you answer those scriptural references I have already posted?
Revelation 2:10
Luke 21:12
Luke 21:16-19
You never answered them, but just threw it back in my face and said it was evidence that I was some kind of masochist who will get what is coming to him.
Anonymous and Dee, I don't care that you are post-trib, I really don't and could care less. I truly believe scripture supports at least a pre-trib rapture. What I don't care for is post-trib proselytizing, something I never see from pre-tribbers, and that alone says volumes.
I also don't debate this topic with every Dick and Dee that comes along for primarily four reasons.
One, there are already many sites with a voluminous amount of commentary on the pre-trib rapture doctrine and all the issues and objections you have with it,
Two, is that it would become an endless version of the movie Ground Hog Day for me and a redundant waste of my time,
Three, most people who want to debate are not looking for the truth as much as they want to show off their debating skills and/or ability to cite scripture (impress somebody else), otherwise they would debate the leading pre-trib rapture doctrine scholars to really test their post-trib theory, and...
Four, because the bible makes it clear that different people will understand the bible differently. Just because we don't know the reason does not negate that.
To Anonymous,
You said,
I hope you do get your desire and are left behind to endure the things coming upon the earth.
Wow, harsh! Again, it is NOT a desire from those who don't believe in the rapture to be left behind and pummelled. We are not gluttons for punishement and I for one do know the tender heart of my LORD JESUS.
Mature people participate in argumentations with the hope to get their point across, not to acuse or even curse, as you did.
Dee
..I want to propose that we leave the trib-question a while.
Not because it aint important - but I want to leave it up to Him - and frankly, I wouldnt mind whether going up befóre, or receiving an entire new being while still downhére...:)
or, in picures, isnt what we argue about here the difference between this
http://th07.deviantart.net/fs51/300W/i/2009/319/d/3/Too_Much_Heaven_by_ChrissieCool.jpg
or this ?
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/-Green-Dragon--fantasy-582120_495_700.jpg
..and who knows - indeed, maybe to some of us will happen the first, and to some of us the latter: does anyone know for sure..?
Years ago, I had a vivid dream, about being a soldier in holes in the ground, in a dark warzone against an unseen enemy: but when I met other soldiers downthere, dirty and tired as me, I was só proud on them- I never forget..
- than please let us than rest the subject a while; because 'Jacobs trouble ' is almost upon us (Jacob meaning all of His who are still imprisoned in the flesh) and Ive still got that heavy feeling that , as Jeff writes, it will be clear to us what He will do with each one of us, only AFTER the moment the seals are opened
than let us watch for that.
http://dprogram.net/2010/01/25/could-vancouver-2010-could-be-the-next-911/
lets not devide eachother
praying for us all,
Lone
added-
'wait untill the seals' meaning,
it looks like the Seals will be opened very, very quickly after oneanother, once started
..and only by 'the half hour of silence' we will know for sure what He has in mind for us
Protect us Lord untill that time; and tell us what You wish
Lone
Hey Jeff,
Give a look at this site and these two google street pictures:
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http://thealienproject.blogspot.com/
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http://maps.google.com/maps?source=embed&layer=c&cbll=42.36396,13.368008&cbp=13,320.72,,0,-29.96&ie=UTF8&panoid=K0Hv_pLb98MJa2Cd_QcH2w&ll=42.363907,13.367907&spn=0,359.997589&z=19
--------------------------
http://maps.google.pt/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=pt-PT&geocode=&q=porto&sll=39.639538,-7.849731&sspn=12.006607,19.753418&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Porto&ll=42.080069,-7.711201&spn=0.022742,0.038581&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=42.07998,-7.711438&panoid=9drPBvhx3ZgTwVoSwFa8oQ&cbp=12,177.85,,0,-19.73
------------------------
Is this the kind of thing, the Lord told us about signs in the skies?
If these pictures are real, something big is going on...
Bless,
Luke 21:12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.
Luke 21:16 "But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death,
17 and you will be hated by all because of My name.
18 "Yet not a hair of your head will perish.
19 "By your endurance you will gain your lives."
Jesus is talking to his apostles here and not to us. All of the above things DID happen to those listening to him at that time. (Are we going to be delivered to the synagogues?) Please keep in mind that not everything Jesus said in his ministry on the earth was meant for the Body of Christ today. Also, all these things were said before the New Covenant was even instituted. I'm not arguing pre or post here, just right division:)
supposed christians
IF you beleive in the rapture? you are also the type people who, celebrate the pagan holiday CHRIST mass? by murdering an evergreen and bringing into your home, fastening it with nails so it doe's not move and adorning it with silver and gold and topping it with the satanic star of lucifer!
why do you think they call it CHRIST MASS it is a satanic celabration of CHRISTS death!!! and I know alot of you phony christians out there do this every year.
then you also teach your children at avery young age 1,2,3,4, years old to LIE by telling them that there is a guy called santa clause?
have you ever noticed that you only need to move one letter to make santa, SATAN. typical occultic letter jumble to fool the idiots!!!
you also probably celebrate easter which is not christian in anyway. look up easter in an older edition dictionary IT will plainly tell you. it is a pagan celebration to the goddes ishtar that starts on good friday and ends in a great orgy on ishtar sunday!!! notice the refrence to the sun god???
and there are many other pagan holidays that you lame christians keep holloween, satans high day??
so if you can't get simple things like GODS holy days,I don't expect you will ever see through the LIE that is the rapture!!!
1 Corinthians 15:51-58 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
paul clearly states here, AT THE LAST TRUMPET(#7) THE END OF THIS AGE. the corruptable will be changed (not raptured) to the incorruptable spirit body in the twikling of an eye( mere seconds)!!!
it could not be more simple or clear!
GOD help these people.AMEN
john
( forgive me for posting again - but cant get rid of the subject..)
What happened to Stephen - didnt he see the open heaven, as well..?
( but he physically died ! )
Isnt it us who, with our dualistic thinking, make difference between heaven and earth - and so about pre or trib, as well?
Probably they are one and the same; or better: whatever happens, its happening áfter "the change in an instant" (and that is when our weak mind come in trouble understanding His amazing world)
When 'the Kingdom HAS come onto earth' , wouldnt it imply that the veil is removed (for us) definately..?
You all know the visions, in which people were shown the whole earth in an instant, for example; all understanding of what we now have, will be shallow compared to the situation AFTER this 'change in instant'.. and THAT is what we're asked to reach: let Him decide what will happen after that.
my guess is that we havent the slightest idea yet, what His world and the Lord are réally like..:)
chew upon it, encourage, let no-one steal your crown or joy
Lone
I was not going to comment on this subject because I have a hard time expressing my thoughts in a coherent way, but the last post yesterday has encouraged me to have my say.
"God never - NEVER - deals with the church and with Israel at the same time. NEVER. That's why it's called "The Week of JACOB'S trouble." (Jacob being Israel.) What purpose would having His bride get the crap beaten out of her serve? To "purify" her? It's the blood of Jesus that washes away all sin!" This reasoning (without the word "crap") was the very thought that went through my mind as I was getting ready for bed last night. Of all the posts written on this subject, this one gets to the heart of the matter--even though the language is somewhat crass (maybe it's the language of his generation).
Also, anyone who believes that pre-tribbers just want to escape and cannot handle daily tribulations (and possibly extreme tribulations) are just looking for a means to criticize the pre-trib belief. I am 74 years old and have had my share of tribulations. Since Jesus came into my life when I was 9 years old, HE has been my source of strength all through these many years and will continue to be regardless of what we may face before HIS return.
And one other thing I have learned along the way: LOVE, LOVE, LOVE!
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.(KJV)
Maranatha
Barbara in VA
Pre and post tribbers,
If your theory about Luke is true, why did Jesus put Peter through a test he could not pass when Peter said he would not betray the Lord? Peter walked with the Lord, he saw his miracles and his diety during the transfiguration. But he still could not help but run from God when someone called him his ally. Why? Because Peter tried to do it under his own strength. He was boastful and confident in his humanity. He even told Jesus he would not allow Him to be crucified! This is what man is like: Peter. We can not be expected to stand up to anything without Jesus. Grace comes to us all, but endurance is a gift from God that only comes when we call out for it earnestly in our weakness. Too many posters so far sound like boasters thinking it will be so easy to endure. The passages you are quoting from Luke are about the flesh. If I took away all of your wordly items including friends and family you would say I destroyed your life. Jesus is simply warning that becoming a Christian can be asking for that same thing. This has nothing to do with us being here for the great and terrible day of the Lord. If we are here, we will be protected through it and not endure it just as Paul indicates. I would suggest everyone brush up on your Greek and learn the correct translations of some of their favorite verses to qoute regarding this matter. I mean that to both sides. We may be here for the tribulation, but we will not suffer during it. The wrath of God starts off the 70th week. We have been enduring Satan's wrath since Jesus ascended. That won't change unless we are raptured. The vitrol between Christian brothers on this matter is ridiculous. Wishing anyone to go through this when they can't comprehend how bad it will be is horrible. That goes for the pre-tribbers hoping the posts go through it too. You should all be ashamed of yourselves and remember one of the most important things Christ said about these matters: ""Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:34-36
It doesn't sound like either side is going to know and that may be exactly what Jesus intended. So as Paul says in Philippians 2, "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."
You know brothers and sisters, in the long run, does it really matter if the rapture comes post or pre? Think about it; we have to walk with Jesus everyday in this life and if He finds us doing that, one day at a time, that is all that matters. It is not about what you believe about the timing of the rapture. The early church believed that the Lord was coming in their day and it is 2000 years later and we are still here. So brothers and sisters, let us not bite each other for our personal beliefs which has nothing to do with salvation. Let us instead, endeavor to love one another more and more as the world gets more ungodly.
The Luke 21 passages are not talking to the Apostles, but to us. I referenced Luke out of context, but you can't interpret them out of context. He is talking to the apostles about the end of days in these passages.
Be that as it may, I am having a sensible dialogue here and what I am hearing back is vitriolic anger about me getting what is coming to me. It is upsetting and disappointing. This is not how I understand Christians talk to one another.
I appreciate the last two comments making peace, saying if we are walking with Jesus, then the timing of a rapture is irrelevant. To this I whole heartedly agree that for those walking with Jesus, we can endure anything in his name. But that leaves a whole host of "luke warm" Christians whom God will spit out of his mouth. It is my belief that God wants to save all of his children.
Let me concede one point, that cuts to the chase. I am a mid-trib believer, but no amount of scare tactics will make a luke warm Christian become hot. And for this, I agree with Rob that we must focus on our daily walk with Jesus.
Thanks Rob and the anonymous post prior to his for the voice of reason.
Oh, and before I get accused of calling pre-tribbers lukewarm, I am not. That said, a pre-trib theory would be enticing to a lukewarm Christian, much in the same way they often deny the existence of a hell and Satan. I think it beneficial to speak the truth. After all, Jesus did not sugar coat it for the Apostles. He said flat out you will be persecuted for my name sake and yet they still kept the faith.
I have a few questions for all 'no pretrib.' rapturists. Why would God send 144,000 'JEWISH' preachers AND the two Prophetic witnesses if the church is still here during the 'TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE'? (It's not called 'the Church's trouble')
What would the church be preaching? 'Salvation by grace through faith' when the 144,000 are warning people not to take the mark or lose there souls?
The church age was a mystery Paul revealed that has a definite end - 'when the times of the gentiles be fulfilled'.
You need to humble yourselves and rightly divide the word OR be embarrassed on the way UP!- BEFORE the tribulation, of course.
Alot of venom being cast on this topic. You CANNOT wish the trib on anyone and have the mind of Christ. I highly suggest you check yourself.
Rob
I so agree with you.
It's the Lord's plan,
we should be content to walk with Him and
let HIS will be done.
And whatever His will turns out to be, we should be OK with that, because He is with us.
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. Romans 14:19
Hey-
Where are all the kind and tenderhearted words around here, Commentors?
God is love, and he who dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God and God in him. 1 John 4:16
I've been saved for almost 40 years, ever since the Holy Spirit Himself led me out of a false religious system and into the truth. One thing I've noticed more and more, especially in recent years - many who call themselves "Christian" are some of the nastiest, ugliest, most self-righteous people you'd ever want to meet. They don't know anything of the love of God; they're judgmental and exhibit no gentleness or tenderness whatsoever - unlike the Lord whom they profess to follow. As "Armageddon" pointed out, there are those who would spread panic and fear, and not simply rest in the Lord and trust in His mercy and grace. (Good post, Armageddon - yes, perhaps they will get what they so earnestly desire.) I really have to wonder about the post-tribbers who get on every board and try to steal the Blessed Hope from those of us who trust in the Lord's mercy on the church He loves so much? What's their REAL motivation?
Luke 21:12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.
For the poster who quotes this a "proof" of a post-trib rapture, let me point out two things: 1. The church didn't even exist yet, and 2. He was speaking to JEWS, as it's Jews who worship at synagogues, as well as to the (Jewish) apostles who did in fact get dragged before kings & governors.
Let me share another Scripture, for the benefit of those who DO look forward to the Blessed Hope:
Rev. 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
The Greek word for "from" is "ek," which means OUT OF or AWAY FROM. Pretty simple to understand...for those who desire to know the truth and not instill fear in the hearts of those whom they claim are their brothers & sisters.
You know, I didn't know any "Christians" when I got saved. Especially seeing all the nastiness that comes from so many of them (particularly on many so-called "Christian" boards), I wonder if I'd have gotten saved and wanted to become a Christian myself if I did?
I have to agree with Ghandi:
"Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ."
If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, BUT DO NOT HAVE LOVE, I AM NOTHING. 1 Cor 13:1-2
JRed, our comments take way too long to get posted and make the discussion non-productive. Is there a way you can speed up the sync?
Anonymous #34,
I'm sorry about that. No, unfortunately, there's nothing that can be done at this time I'm afraid.
I ask that you please refer to this recent post for details as to why this is the case:
http://www.lookupfellowship.com/2010/01/whats-god-up-to.html
Thanks for your time.
God Bless,
Jeff (JRed)
Okay, I feel I must chime in, lol! One common thread I have known and seen all my years as a child of God is that God's Word is not easily understood or interpreted else we would all be singing the same song. So, logic tells me God did not plan for us to know the EXACT nature of his plan(s).
As an experienced firefighter my training has always been to expect the unexpected and be ready at a moments notice to change direction. We would be well advised to think the same way about the coming of our Lord Jesus. I instruct my junior fire fighters to always don their breathing apparatus because when you recognize the need for it, it is too late to go back and get it. (That sounds familiar).
Rather than argue one way or the other, would it not be wiser to all agree it is coming and leave it at that? I think we can all agree that the end of this age WILL occur and that those who accept Jesus as their Savior WILL go to heaven, why must we argue on the timing of such? What good does it do?
Be sure you have your bags packed and in order, but be prepared for a longer stay just in case.
Nick
Luke 21:36 "Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
Brothers and Sisters:
We all need to pray for a peace-loving and humble spirit and to be slow to anger.
God Bless You All.
Way to get hung up on the word synagogue. Jesus was a Jew himself, was he not? So he was ALWAYS speaking to Jews. Does that mean you will discount everything he says as not applying to modern day Christians. And who is to say that synagogues won't be a part of the end of times tribulation. You don't know that.
For the record, I didn't post Luke for a post-trib theory. I posted it for a mid-trib theory. God does not impose upon people's free-will and therefore in the end of times people will cause a lot of trials for Christians. The tribulation is two parts, the tribulation caused by man and God's response.
What I suggest is we will escape God's response, but we will not escape man's evil. There is a TON of precedence in the Bible if you would only look. Did not Job suffer at the hands of Satan? Noah did not escape the evil of his time, but he was saved from God's wrath. Lot lived amongst the evil of his time, but God delivered him from Sodom and Gomorrah. The Israelites did not escape suffering and slavery at the hands of Egypt, but they were "passed over" from God's wrath. Jesus and the apostles were subject to man's inhumanities, but their soul is ultimately in the hands of God.
Notice a trend here? God's people are subject to man's evil and God delivers his people out of it. So why do you think this time will be any different? We will be subject to the evil's of this world, just like we are right now, and then God will deliver us. In other words, we will have the mercy of a Passover of God's wrath.
If you notice that all references to the righteous suffering is not suffering the calamities brought forth by God, but at suffering at the hands of man. Lastly, I am not engaging in scare tactics. This is a spiritual battle and we are spiritual warriors. We should start treating it as such.
One more thing. You quoted this scripture.
Rev. 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
What exactly are we enduring? SEE, mid-trib!!! Endure man's evil and be delivered from God's wrath.
You know what might be interesting? To know what the early churh fathers taught about the second coming of CHRIST...
If you take the number 50 which is Pentecost and then the number 6 which is man you get the number 56 Pentecost and man whatever that means.
Christian Apostasy: More Proof Of a Pre-tribulation, Pre-Time of Jacob's Trouble Escape From All/Rap...
http://christianitynotchurchianity.blogs...
Nobody became popular by telling the truth. History has recorded what people (esp religious people) did to the prophets of the past. Everything that could possibly point to Jesus's imminent return for His Bride is now pointing. Today's so called Christianity is apostate and idolatrous. Read on..
Folks, Have you figured it out yet? You cannot argue with a fool, as he is wise in his own eyes. Don't do it. It just makes you angry, and allows you to be ridiculed and that is what he so desires. To make himself look wise and to make you look like a satanist. See these verses from God's word (And I used the KJV too)
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit
The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
Don't give him the satisfaction. You will never "win" the argument.
Oh, and my name is Teresa in case you need to know that.
fwiw,
..I only know that the moment, we will be changed (from inside)..it ll show like we were always in a dark room, when the door is opened and floodlight comes in..to be frank: I love and fear that moment - love it because of its amazing beauty but fear because of..awe..In His world where all laws and perception is different
few times I saw new people standing, waiting expectantly for the Lord; they were young woman (dont know why) and the one was blonde, the other blackhaired, etc, but each one amazing different and..pérfect - it would take eternity to study just a cheekbone, and the LORD made each one of them with such care like each one only existed for Him
- this is an open site; but yes Im obsessed :) and nothing is interesting no more but to reach thát again
than why we always want to seperate everything..the Lord will have ONE People..
..the Lords Love is not a tyrant -but the love of a King: it lifts up what is fallen, what is in shame, to restore it - to be like Him again
..as in 'His Image '
if its pretrib, so be it - but if its midtrib, than yes I believe what is written 'when you walk through the fire, you ll not be burned '
Lone
JRED...just the mention of the 'r' word gets more comments than just about any other topic...interesting.:)
ATTY..
I haven't seen you here for awhile..nice to know you're still around.
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