What We're Praying/Talking About
Our faith in action, or our small contribution in trying to apply what we're taught in Hebrews 5-6 and James 2:17-26 for the benefit of our dear brothers and sisters within the Body of Christ...
The Heart Of The Matter - Notable Quotable
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13 Comments:
Not buying it. More "I have to damn someone to feel secure in my salvation" Christianity. I know some people need the fear that they aren't saved but I'm not gonna live in constant doubt that I'm not saved. If the Creator sits outside of time and space (3rd and 4th dimension) then its pretty easy for Yah to form a perfect plan of reconciliation of ALL creation (which is in the Bible). Yes, there are scriptures to the contrary, both exist simultaneously because the Holy Spirit need both polarities to work in different people lives for the Ultimate plan. God's plan from "Alpha to Omega" does not tamper with the freewill choices of every person who has ever lived, just accounts for them.
http://www.godsplanforall.com/
Blessings in disagreement,
Brandon
Brandon,
Thanks for stopping by and for sharing your thoughts.
Respectfully, I don't quite fully understand your comments.
I took this quote that I published in a completely different way. In fact, I didn't see it as an example of how we shouldn't feel "eternally secure", but as a reminder that SANCTIFICATION is an indication that a person is truly saved. The thought that we can merely accept Jesus Christ through faith, and by uttering a 60-second prayer, and then sin like the devil from Monday-Saturday after attending church on Sundays is a deceptive form of Christianity.
The Gospel is life-saving and life-changing, right? Anyway, maybe I missed understood what you were trying to say with your comments, and if so, then I apologize.
Either way, thanks again for stopping by and for writing. God bless you!
Saved By Grace Through Faith,
Jeff (JRed)
Brandon,
I just took a moment to visit your website.
Admittedly, I have to spend more time looking into your claims before I can offer a definitive comment one way or another because what I quickly read was shocking.
No Hell? No eternal punishment? Everyone will be saved -- no matter what? Really?
Now, it is I who must STRONGLY -- not respectfully -- disagree with that kind of assessment of the Word of God and of the Salvation Gospel.
My friend, there are so many different angles I could approach this with you that it's difficult to decide where to begin. If you say that the doctrine of Hell is false, then I'm curious what you think about the doctrine of Election/Divine Election, which would seem to stand in DIRECT OPPOSITION to your thesis here.
Please consider these:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/i-want-to-believe-radio/2010/04/20/from-grace-comes-divine-election
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/i-want-to-believe-radio/2010/04/21/divine-election-what-are-the-implications
Praying for you.
Jeff (JRed)
The Christian walk is not easy. This quote is speaking in regards to Jesus' teaching that we should carry our cross daily. The whole road to Golgotha, Jesus carried a cross, after being beaten, whipped, having his beard pulled out, and more. That's what this is saying. You are right about this though, "God's plan from "Alpha to Omega" does not tamper with the freewill choices of every person who has ever lived, just accounts for them."
Marshall
Thank you for your prayers and extensive work, JRED. You are a great defender and proponent of the faith. The web site that you glanced at is not mine. I merely forwarded it because I feel it is the most comprehensive overview of Biblical universalism.
As for no hell and no eternal punishment, I won't go there either because we could throw scriptures and Hebrew/Greek etymology at each other for years. What I will say about "election" is that in Yah's plan for the ages, election deals with those "called" in this age. Those who are "especially saved" as referenced in 1 Tim. 4:10
Sorry for misinterpreting your intention and yes, I agree with you that we can not be comfortable because sanctification IS part of the refining fire/divine alchemy.
Respectfully and strongly in theological opposition,
Brandon
"If you've been told that you can have Christ as Savior without having Him as Lord...", never heard that one before. Not possible of course. Nor have I heard "that salvation is as easy as ABC". "...if you were assured that a momentary decision would save your soul, you've been taught 'Easy-Believism'. If you think that such believing will save you, you are deceived!" Whoa... hold on here. Isn't asking Jesus into your heart and life a momentary decision? I mean Jesus didn't say you need to do a special dance, or light a candle or anything else, right? Of course one would have to take this decision with serious contemplation, not just some incantation.
Jeff, you said "SANCTIFICATION is an indication that a person is truly saved". By who's discretion? Define sanctification. Is this not a state of being between ourselves and God? Yes, it is. Life-changing? I would hope so. Then you say, "sin like the devil from Monday-Saturday after attending church" is a form of deceptive Christianity. So, out of curiosity, how much sin can we do before it is labeled "sin like the devil"? Twenty, one hundred...? I am not advocating sin of course, but isn't one sin as bad as a million? To God?
No offense, but this statement is somewhat askew and attempts to say that asking Jesus into your heart and life and accepting him is not enough. Can you clarify this?
I believe the moment I asked Jesus into my life with all my heart, all my mind, all my soul and all my strength, he separated me from the goats right then and there. Do I have to repeat this process every time my sinful nature exposes its ugly self? I should hope not. I for one can not walk the face of this planet without, in one way or another, doing something that is sinful. Every time I start my car I am poisoning the world. I don't wish to sin, but unfortunately it comes with the territory. Of course I don't go out of my way to sin, but nonetheless I do and so do you.
We can not add to Jesus' saving grace with conditions he himself did not add. I do agree that if a person is truly saved, they will on an everyday hour by hour, moment by moment basis live in a personal relationship with God. But will they necessarily have him up front and center in every thought and movement? As wonderful as that would be not everyone can do that. Are there sins we do not recognize or perhaps some think one thing is a sin while another does not? Such as playing a musical instrument in a church? Does that disqualify them? There being more to Jesus' saving grace than simply believing is naive.
Just saying...
Nick
Nick,
Please allow me to clarify my comments because you make some GREAT points and I can see how they may have been misinterpreted.
First, on the whole "ask Jesus into your heart" concept:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/i-want-to-believe-radio/2010/04/22/divine-election-10-reasons-not-to-ask-jesus-into-your-heart
Bottom line, there's nothing Biblical about that. There is not one verse that tells us to "ask Jesus into our hearts" in order to be saved.
As far as Sanctification is concerned, isn't evidence of the Holy Spirit's sanctifying work in a person's life CLEAR EVIDENCE that they have truly made Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior of their life, rather than simply believing and that's it? I mean, evil Satan and his minions believe in Jesus, right?
I'm not trying to be a "smart @$$" here, and I don't think it's a case of "just semantics" either.
You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT too about how sin is sin, and my use of the phrase "sin like the devil from Monday-Saturday" was probably misused in my attempt to emphasize the point I was trying to make.
I agree that it's NOT about "repeating" the process so-to-speak, but about simply HUMBLING YOURSELF AND REPENTING each and every time you and I do commit a sin. Yes, as God's sanctifying work continues in our lives from now until our last, dying breath we may sin less and less (evidence of His sanctifying work perhaps?), but we will never stop being sinners so repentance when we trip and fall is key I think.
Anyway, I hope that answers your questions. My reason for posting this quote was to point out how I feel that far too many "Christians" are merely "Christian In Name Only", as there's NO EVIDENCE that the life-saving, and life-changing decision they made actually changed their life.
God Bless You,
Jeff (JRed)
John 6:35-40
35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
I really don't think that Jesus would say "oh well, you came to me and believed in me, but you asked me into your heart...sorry".
I'll take Jesus words over anyone else's anyday.
I agree with Jeff, there is no such thing as "asking Jesus into your heart". What there is from everyone in the New Testament is:
Mat 3:2 NIV - and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
Mat 4:17 NIV - From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
Mat 11:20 NIV - Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
Mar 1:15 NIV - "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
Mar 6:12 NIV - They went out and preached that people should repent.
Luk 13:3 NIV - I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
Luk 15:7 NIV - I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luk 16:30 NIV - " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
Act 2:38 NIV - Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 3:19 NIV - Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Act 17:30 NIV - In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Act 26:20 NIV - First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Rev 3:3 NIV - Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Rev 3:19 NIV - Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
Galatians 4:6-7
6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Ephesians 3:16-17
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love...
Romans 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
The term 'Easy-Believism' isn't in the Bible either.
Jred
You said, "Bottom line, there's nothing Biblical about that. There is not one verse that tells us to "ask Jesus into our hearts" in order to be saved."
Are you sure about that? When King Solomon says in 1 Kings 8:39 “then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you alone know the hearts of all men)" What does that mean, he alone knows us in our hearts?
It may be our mind/mouth we use to say we believe, but it is with our hearts that God knows what we truly believe. What a man says and speaks means nothing to God as what he has and says with his heart. When a person believes in Jesus to be the Son of God and accepts/receives this in his heart, God knows this. A man can fool others with his mouth and even himself with his mind, but he can't fool God. Neither can Satan who also believes, but does not receive.
The Scripture is jammed full with what the heart is all about. Even Mark 2:8 says "Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things?"" So we see here we "think with our hearts".
You said, "As far as Sanctification is concerned, isn't evidence of the Holy Spirit's sanctifying work in a person's life CLEAR EVIDENCE that they have truly made Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior of their life, rather than simply believing and that's it?"
What is sanctifying work? The moment I "believed" in my heart, I did not need nor require any evidence that I had been saved. But I knew without a doubt "I" was sanctified! In John 17:19 Jesus said, "For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified." This means set aside or separated from the rest. There are many out there who "think" they are doing the work of the Holy Spirit, but are only doing "their" work. And you know we are not saved by any work!
Again, what is this sanctifying work? Did Jesus say believe on me, but you aren't truly saved unless the Holy Spirit does some sanctifying work through you? What does it mean in John 1:12 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—" I see nothing there about getting some sort of evidence or doing some sort of work by the Holy Spirit. And what about all that time between Jesus' resurrection and when the bible became available to common man long after 1550 CE? For over 1500 years mankind did not have any other instructions other than to receive him and believe in his name. Scripture does not save, the Good News, the Gospel--Jesus saves.
(Part 2 follows)
You said, "I agree that it's NOT about "repeating" the process so-to-speak, but about simply HUMBLING YOURSELF AND REPENTING each and every time you and I do commit a sin."
What about sins we don't know about? Even the Jews had sacrifices for unintentional unknown sins. Let me say this, I believe I am saved simply because I believe with all my heart and every time I come to the Lord with praise or petition I ask for his forgiveness because I know I've sinned even if I cannot identify it. (Of course if know I've committed a sin, I seek immediate forgiveness, but this is because of my shame). He knows what sins I've committed against him even if I don't, but with all humbleness I seek his forgiveness. And through his promise he forgives and forgets!
Isaiah 59:2 warns us not to allow sin to become a wall or veil between you and God, so he can hear your prayer: “But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.” (The Hebrew word for hear is shama` [shä•mah'] also means listen). It is not that God can’t hear the sinner, but that he won’t listen to the sinner. He will certainly hear you confess your sins and ask for His forgiveness, so you can be in right standing with Him. And this you should do every time you "call" home.
You said, "My reason for posting this quote was to point out how I feel that far too many "Christians" are merely "Christian In Name Only"."
This is true. Even Scripture points this out. But, what is that to us? They have the same information we do. Either they believe with their heart or they don't. This is not rocket science. No amount my explaining it to them is going to make a difference. It is the easiest thing to understand. If I slap you upside your head, will you believe I did it? Jesus is real and is the Son of God and died to remove our sins. All you have to do is believe it or better still, want to believe it. That too is key: want. You do have to want it. No one seeks what they don't want.
Lastly, you said, "..as there's NO EVIDENCE that the life-saving, and life-changing decision they made actually changed their life."
By who's measurement? Does God ask you who is saved and who isn't? This sounds to me as if you are the one looking for this "evidence". That is between them and God. If you tell me you are saved, but by "our" relationship I have some doubts, I can come to you with these doubts and talk with you. Maybe point out some things and you can maybe set me straight on my own misunderstandings and together we help each other. But, if you say you are saved, who am I to call you out?
Thanks for listening and being here. I learn every time I talk about my Godly family.
Nick
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