What We're Praying/Talking About
Our faith in action, or our small contribution in trying to apply what we're taught in Hebrews 5-6 and James 2:17-26 for the benefit of our dear brothers and sisters within the Body of Christ...
Christian Hypocrites -- Notable Quotable
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50 Comments:
Hmmm, this can only be his opinion as he has no empirical evidence to back up his claim. The statistics on divorce are apparently accurate, but the rest is just his opinion. He has no idea what goes on inside anyone else's home!
Well, maybe.... Having been in a stable marriage, homeschooled my kids and poured into them all I know of the LORD and still having had a child who went his own way...I am not totally sure we can blame each other (Christians for the moral decline in our country). Everyone has a free will and make their own choices.
Dee
Sure, those brought up in a Christian home can still go astray, and Christian divorce statistics are very similar to those of the secular world.
What drew me to this quote was not so much these intricacies, but the overall point that supposedly "Christian" homes are often anything but nowadays.
I think the message here is that the world should be able to see a difference between Christians and non-Christians, but they rarely do anymore because far too many are "Christians-In-Name-Only".
Look, I'm not trying to be "holier than thou" either! No way! In fact, in my home, my young family still struggles mightily with this, but we will trust in God's grace to help give our new heart and mind new desires as we grow in our relationship to Him.
As always, thanks for the comments. I always like the discussion that these Notable Quotables generate.
In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")
Hey Jeff,
No, I think you are on to something. (You know sometimes it is the tiny things that bring about great discussions..)
I have been thinking a lot how Jesus said He came to bring a sword and not peace. I have seen some Christian families break up, mainly because one of the spouses was not really a believer to begin with. They were fake! I also think this is how we understand another to be of the Body of Christ: that your spirit will bare witness to theirs. That's why the Bride is not found in church buildings; she is everywhere, just living out her life in Christ; like a little lamp in a field at night. Little wheat, many tares...
Dee
Dee, I agree with you! It has never been tougher for families than it is now, but our hope in Christ is still the same and we can cover our children and grandchildren in prayer every day and trust our all-powerful God for good results.
Liz, it is sad that the divorce rate of Christians is so high. Even ministers are divorcing and they are supposedly our shepherds. But I thank God for all of the Christian families that are living for the Lord and thanks to their prayers our country has held up this long. I expected a collapse in the nineties.
Jeff, it is true that many Christians are so in name only. After all Christ said that the wheat will grow with the tares. It must be so stressful for families with a non-believing spouse! These families need to be covered in prayer by the church so that the believing spouse can hold up and be an example to the family. Paul said that the non-believing spouse is sanctified by the believing spouse. So these families are holy. The unbelieving spouse needs to understand that the power within them trumps their spouse unbelief and they can be rest assured that Christ is in control every moment.
Jeff, I did a little research on Phillip Lancaster and it appears that he is a dominionist and was the founder of the patriarch movement. Here is one of his quotes: "The very act of sending a daughter away on a mission trip for a couple weeks or on an apprenticeship for several months teaches her to have a spirit of independence that will not suit her for her calling as a helper to her husband." Be careful brother! It seems that he is into control.
Thanks for the word of caution Rob as it's greatly appreciated.
I didn't know that about him. In fact, I didn't know anything about him, but only came across this quote attributed to him, and it hit a nerve with me.
I'll have to look into his background a bit before I can comment further on his own personal beliefs.
Thanks again and God bless you and yours!
In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")
Nothing new with that. This is most likely because most "Christian" homes live in the same world. However, this may not have anything to do with being worldly or being like the world. Even in Moses time where there certificates of divorce.
Time and time again I say it, it is not what we do or how we live that makes us Children of God, but our acceptance of Jesus as our Savior. That in itself is what separates us from the rest of the 'world'. Yes, it would be a good thing if we could also appear to be different, but alas that is not always possible.
What bothers me more than anything is that the rest of the 'world' labels this vast group of people as 'Christians' when many, sadly are not and give true Christians a bad name. This also comes from mis-guided Christians that look like total hypocrites because of what they preach which is not the Good News, but how to at as hypocrites. Unfortunately, because of this a vast amount of non-Christians see Christians as something they don't want to be. True Christians need to tell gentiles/pagans that Salvation is not based how we act. but on Jesus alone.
Nick
BTW, something I thought was up your alley, so-to-speak, Jeff. Did you read how the strong solar flares can cause the northern lights to appear blood-red which has happened before and appeared to much of the world back in 1859? The flares are expected to be at it's height in its cycle in 2013. Just something to look at if you haven't. Been way too busy to be looking in all the time anymore, so excuse me if you already discussed this.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tomchivers/100008500/nasas-2013-solar-flare-warning-how-much-do-we-need-to-worry/
Nick
Are Christians in name only taking the LORDS name in vain? Kevin
More great comments!
Nick, no, I hadn't seen that or discussed that here so thank you.
As I was thinking about this quote again today it's worth noting that the issue it speaks to is SANCTIFICATION and not SALVATION so I'm glad that was brought up.
No, there's NOTHING we can do to earn salvation. But when it comes to sanctification, I truly believe that someone who has the Holy Spirit in their life will seem much different than someone who doesn't. Hence, the whole "we should be able to tell the difference between Christians and non-Christians" comments by me earlier.
Anyway, good discussion here so let's keep it going.
Saved By Grace Through Faith,
Jeff ("JRed")
...side note...here in Calif. Prop 8 was over turned! It was voted down and the court over turned it...how in your face is that!!!!!
Jeff, I'm not sure I can totally agree with you statement: that someone who has the Holy Spirit in their life will seem much different than someone who doesn't.
I do agree that when someone accepts Jesus as Savior that there should be a change in their life unless of course they were living a righteous life to begin with, and even then there should seemingly be a difference in how they feel. Again, it is not what is on the outside, but rather what is in the heart and only God knows the heart of each person. Even when Jesus uses the word hagiazō he uses it in meaning to separate from profane things and dedicate to God. This is not an outward sign.
We are 'sanctified' (hagiazō) by the Holy Spirit. This of course is not necessarily an outward appearance and we should be careful in believing this should be so, because then we get into a judgment mode that belongs to God alone.
I hang out with non-Christians and outright pagans and I bring up my faith when it works into the conversation. Anyone, who doesn't know me might not recognize me as a Christian outright, but soon would after knowing me after a while. (I don't wear crosses or stick fishes on my car). And it is sweet music to my ears is when a pagan friends says to me that I am the only Christian they've been able to talk to because others are so quick to talk down to them, and even tell them they are going to hell.
I know when I talk to non-Christians the things I tell them will stick with them and I pray it will be the seed that bears good fruit.
One other thought that comes to mind was the disdain Jesus had for the teachers of the law in Luke 20:46 and the hypocrites of Matt 6:5, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. There are many other examples of this sort of 'wearing of God on their sleeve' that Jesus points out was not a good thing. Rather he pointed out those who were humble and quiet about it.
Just a thought.
Nick
Nick, now it is I who must respectfully disagree... :) I pray that this response is taken as a loving concern from one brother to another.
Coincidentally, I've done recent studies on ALL of these very important issues/questions and would love your take on them after you get a chance to review them.
Of course, all the "surprising" answers are rooted in Scripture -- yes, even the verses that many of us don't like to think about because they convict us and make us uncomfortable.
ON HOLY SPIRIT IN ONE'S LIFE:
When I talked about "noticing a difference" it's based on the Word that tells us...
Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
I would also check out 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John, which is an instruction manual for Christian living. Helps to identify any "False Converts" out there.
ON THE PHARISEES:
"Am I A Pharisee?"
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/kingdom-bound-radio/2010/06/02/am-i-a-pharisee
Quick question: Doesn't your heart break for your non-Christian and pagan friends who you know are going to Hell if they don't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior before they die? If so, then are the "seeds" you mentioned planting the kind that preach the Gospel and of their desperate need to repent of their sins?
ON JUDGING OTHERS:
The Bible -- the inerrant Word of God -- turns these common misconceptions on their head! We've allowed the world (and false teachers) to give us a watered down, inaccurate Gospel.
"Christians Shouldn't Judge Others!"
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/i-want-to-believe-radio/2010/06/15/christians-shouldnt-judge-others
"Jesus Didn't Condemn The Woman Caught Committing Adultery"
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/i-want-to-believe-radio/2010/06/23/jesus-didnt-condemn-the-woman-caught-committing-adultery
"Being Judgmental Leads To Discipline - Part 1"
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/i-want-to-believe-radio/2010/06/17/being-judgmental-leads-to-discipline--part-1
"Being Judgmental Leads To Discipline - Part 2"
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/i-want-to-believe-radio/2010/07/14/being-judgmental-leads-to-discipline--part-2
Your Brother In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")
This is Part 1
Jeff wrote: Nick, now it is I who must respectfully disagree... :) I pray that this response is taken as a loving concern from one brother to another.
Oh, no need to pray about the response at all Jeff! I am perfectly fine with our mutual respect. As I have said before, God's Word is infallible, it is man who is not. If God had meant for us to perfectly understand his Word, then we would not be having this conversation. For example, He tells us to calculate the number of the beast. However, he also said it takes wisdom. Yet so many want to make you believe that they have the answer. Ever calculate the numbers on a Roulette wheel? Amazingly enough they add up to 666! Does this mean the roulette wheel is Satan? Of course not, but you will be surprised how many will run with that fact and make some sort of evil connection. Yes, we know that gambling is bad and leads to many evil things, but that has nothing to do with the wheel itself.
Jeff says: Coincidentally, I've done recent studies on ALL of these very important issues/questions and would love your take on them after you get a chance to review them.
So far as reviewing goes, I have no problem with that, provided I can make the time. I do have a hard time getting people to understand that just because God has bestowed wisdom on someone as you or me, it does not mean it takes wisdom to understand God or his Word. If this were so then all who have wisdom would be speaking the same language, but we don't. So if all those who have wisdom can not fully agree on what God is saying in the bible, then it is obvious that he never intended it to be that way (or none of us has wisdom). Of course we all agree on the one single basic, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that by accepting him into our hearts we obtain the gift of Salvation.
Part two follows
Jeff says: Of course, all the "surprising" answers are rooted in Scripture -- yes, even the verses that many of us don't like to think about because they convict us and make us uncomfortable.
I was convicted from the beginning even before I knew the bible. It did not take the bible to tell me I was a sinner. Thank God our Salvation is not based on having a bible or even knowing it as very few people even had access to a bible before the year 1600! Yet people still came to Jesus and were saved and lived and died without ever reading a bible and went to Paradise just as the thief on the cross did! So why do people put such a large emphasis on the bible when it comes to salvation? Yes, it is good. It has wonderful lessons and instructions for good Christian living. But again, it is not needed for Salvation which is what I am more concern about when speaking to others. I truly ache in my heart for those who walk away from Jesus because they are told they must know the bible if they want to be a Christian. Oy! How so untrue!
Jeff says: ON HOLY SPIRIT IN ONE'S LIFE: When I talked about "noticing a difference" it's based on the Word that tells us... Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Who is the 'Ye' in this scripture, and who are the 'them'? Jesus was speaking to the Jews who were around him at the time and the 'them' were the false prophets of the time he was warning them about. The false prophets were those who proclaimed to speak for God. He was saying they could identify them by their acts and deeds. Who could be these false prophets today? Those proclaiming that they have the answers or that God showed them the answers. God has come to me and He had shown me things, but he never told me to tell anyone anything. I do tell others of what happened to me that day, but not because he told me to. To be fair, he never told me NOT to convey what happened to me either. I am not a prophet, so this scripture is not talking about me. Are you a prophet? Do you never sin? If I see you do even one thing I perceive is a sin, should I assume you are not a child of God? Of course not! There are those who claim to be Christians who have a very warped sense of what sinning even is! Westboro Baptist Church is a very good example of this.
Jeff says: Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." I would also check out 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John, which is an instruction manual for Christian living. Helps to identify any "False Converts" out there.
How do those without a bible ever learn to live like a Christian? Do you really think without the bible one cannot live as a Christian? Does living as a Christian save you or is it believing and accepting Jesus as your Savior? About the only way I can judge if a person is not a Christian (other than obvious signs: axe murderer, Satan worshiper) is if they come out and tell me they're not. Who am I to tell you you are not a Christian based on MY perception of what a Christian should be? If you claim to me you are a Christian, and I 'think' you are doing wrong, then I will come to you and tell you. We can discuss it based on scripture, but ultimately only God will be able to say who is right and who is wrong in certain cases. I have seen this many many times between denominations to the point it makes me sad. Never should we argue over God's Word. What ever happened to Matt 7:1-7?
Part 3 follows
Okay I had to break this down:
Part 1
Jeff wrote: Nick, now it is I who must respectfully disagree... :) I pray that this response is taken as a loving concern from one brother to another.
Oh, no need to pray about the response at all Jeff! I am perfectly fine with our mutual respect. As I have said before, God's Word is infallible, it is man who is not. If God had meant for us to perfectly understand his Word, then we would not be having this conversation. For example, He tells us to calculate the number of the beast. However, he also said it takes wisdom. Yet so many want to make you believe that they have the answer. Ever calculate the numbers on a Roulette wheel? Amazingly enough they add up to 666! Does this mean the roulette wheel is Satan? Of course not, but you will be surprised how many will run with that fact and make some sort of evil connection. Yes, we know that gambling is bad and leads to many evil things, but that has nothing to do with the wheel itself.
Jeff says: Coincidentally, I've done recent studies on ALL of these very important issues/questions and would love your take on them after you get a chance to review them.
So far as reviewing goes, I have no problem with that, provided I can make the time. I do have a hard time getting people to understand that just because God has bestowed wisdom on someone as you or me, it does not mean it takes wisdom to understand God or his Word. If this were so then all who have wisdom would be speaking the same language, but we don't. So if all those who have wisdom can not fully agree on what God is saying in the bible, then it is obvious that he never intended it to be that way (or none of us has wisdom). Of course we all agree on the one single basic, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that by accepting him into our hearts we obtain the gift of Salvation.
Jeff says: Of course, all the "surprising" answers are rooted in Scripture -- yes, even the verses that many of us don't like to think about because they convict us and make us uncomfortable.
I was convicted from the beginning even before I knew the bible. It did not take the bible to tell me I was a sinner. Thank God our Salvation is not based on having a bible or even knowing it as very few people even had access to a bible before the year 1600! Yet people still came to Jesus and were saved and lived and died without ever reading a bible and went to Paradise just as the thief on the cross did! So why do people put such a large emphasis on the bible when it comes to salvation? Yes, it is good. It has wonderful lessons and instructions for good Christian living. But again, it is not needed for Salvation which is what I am more concern about when speaking to others. I truly ache in my heart for those who walk away from Jesus because they are told they must know the bible if they want to be a Christian. Oy! How so untrue!
I am having problems posting. This is part 1:
Jeff wrote: Nick, now it is I who must respectfully disagree... :) I pray that this response is taken as a loving concern from one brother to another.
Oh, no need to pray about the response at all Jeff! I am perfectly fine with our mutual respect. As I have said before, God's Word is infallible, it is man who is not. If God had meant for us to perfectly understand his Word, then we would not be having this conversation. For example, He tells us to calculate the number of the beast. However, he also said it takes wisdom. Yet so many want to make you believe that they have the answer. Ever calculate the numbers on a Roulette wheel? Amazingly enough they add up to 666! Does this mean the roulette wheel is Satan? Of course not, but you will be surprised how many will run with that fact and make some sort of evil connection. Yes, we know that gambling is bad and leads to many evil things, but that has nothing to do with the wheel itself.
Jeff says: Coincidentally, I've done recent studies on ALL of these very important issues/questions and would love your take on them after you get a chance to review them.
So far as reviewing goes, I have no problem with that, provided I can make the time. I do have a hard time getting people to understand that just because God has bestowed wisdom on someone as you or me, it does not mean it takes wisdom to understand God or his Word. If this were so then all who have wisdom would be speaking the same language, but we don't. So if all those who have wisdom can not fully agree on what God is saying in the bible, then it is obvious that he never intended it to be that way (or none of us has wisdom). Of course we all agree on the one single basic, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that by accepting him into our hearts we obtain the gift of Salvation.
Jeff says: Of course, all the "surprising" answers are rooted in Scripture -- yes, even the verses that many of us don't like to think about because they convict us and make us uncomfortable.
I was convicted from the beginning even before I knew the bible. It did not take the bible to tell me I was a sinner. Thank God our Salvation is not based on having a bible or even knowing it as very few people even had access to a bible before the year 1600! Yet people still came to Jesus and were saved and lived and died without ever reading a bible and went to Paradise just as the thief on the cross did! So why do people put such a large emphasis on the bible when it comes to salvation? Yes, it is good. It has wonderful lessons and instructions for good Christian living. But again, it is not needed for Salvation which is what I am more concern about when speaking to others. I truly ache in my heart for those who walk away from Jesus because they are told they must know the bible if they want to be a Christian. Oy! How so untrue!
Jeff wrote: Nick, now it is I who must respectfully disagree... :) I pray that this response is taken as a loving concern from one brother to another.
Oh, no need to pray about the response at all Jeff! I am perfectly fine with our mutual respect. As I have said before, God's Word is infallible, it is man who is not. If God had meant for us to perfectly understand his Word, then we would not be having this conversation. For example, He tells us to calculate the number of the beast. However, he also said it takes wisdom. Yet so many want to make you believe that they have the answer. Ever calculate the numbers on a Roulette wheel? Amazingly enough they add up to 666! Does this mean the roulette wheel is Satan? Of course not, but you will be surprised how many will run with that fact and make some sort of evil connection. Yes, we know that gambling is bad and leads to many evil things, but that has nothing to do with the wheel itself.
Jeff says: Coincidentally, I've done recent studies on ALL of these very important issues/questions and would love your take on them after you get a chance to review them.
So far as reviewing goes, I have no problem with that, provided I can make the time. I do have a hard time getting people to understand that just because God has bestowed wisdom on someone as you or me, it does not mean it takes wisdom to understand God or his Word. If this were so then all who have wisdom would be speaking the same language, but we don't. So if all those who have wisdom can not fully agree on what God is saying in the bible, then it is obvious that he never intended it to be that way (or none of us has wisdom). Of course we all agree on the one single basic, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that by accepting him into our hearts we obtain the gift of Salvation.
Jeff says: Of course, all the "surprising" answers are rooted in Scripture -- yes, even the verses that many of us don't like to think about because they convict us and make us uncomfortable.
I was convicted from the beginning even before I knew the bible. It did not take the bible to tell me I was a sinner. Thank God our Salvation is not based on having a bible or even knowing it as very few people even had access to a bible before the year 1600! Yet people still came to Jesus and were saved and lived and died without ever reading a bible and went to Paradise just as the thief on the cross did! So why do people put such a large emphasis on the bible when it comes to salvation? Yes, it is good. It has wonderful lessons and instructions for good Christian living. But again, it is not needed for Salvation which is what I am more concern about when speaking to others. I truly ache in my heart for those who walk away from Jesus because they are told they must know the bible if they want to be a Christian. Oy! How so untrue!
part 2 follows
Jeff wrote: Nick, now it is I who must respectfully disagree... :) I pray that this response is taken as a loving concern from one brother to another.
Oh, no need to pray about the response at all Jeff! I am perfectly fine with our mutual respect. As I have said before, God's Word is infallible, it is man who is not. If God had meant for us to perfectly understand his Word, then we would not be having this conversation. For example, He tells us to calculate the number of the beast. However, he also said it takes wisdom. Yet so many want to make you believe that they have the answer. Ever calculate the numbers on a Roulette wheel? Amazingly enough they add up to 666! Does this mean the roulette wheel is Satan? Of course not, but you will be surprised how many will run with that fact and make some sort of evil connection. Yes, we know that gambling is bad and leads to many evil things, but that has nothing to do with the wheel itself.
Jeff says: Coincidentally, I've done recent studies on ALL of these very important issues/questions and would love your take on them after you get a chance to review them.
So far as reviewing goes, I have no problem with that, provided I can make the time. I do have a hard time getting people to understand that just because God has bestowed wisdom on someone as you or me, it does not mean it takes wisdom to understand God or his Word. If this were so then all who have wisdom would be speaking the same language, but we don't. So if all those who have wisdom can not fully agree on what God is saying in the bible, then it is obvious that he never intended it to be that way (or none of us has wisdom). Of course we all agree on the one single basic, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that by accepting him into our hearts we obtain the gift of Salvation.
Jeff says: Of course, all the "surprising" answers are rooted in Scripture -- yes, even the verses that many of us don't like to think about because they convict us and make us uncomfortable.
I was convicted from the beginning even before I knew the bible. It did not take the bible to tell me I was a sinner. Thank God our Salvation is not based on having a bible or even knowing it as very few people even had access to a bible before the year 1600! Yet people still came to Jesus and were saved and lived and died without ever reading a bible and went to Paradise just as the thief on the cross did! So why do people put such a large emphasis on the bible when it comes to salvation? Yes, it is good. It has wonderful lessons and instructions for good Christian living. But again, it is not needed for Salvation which is what I am more concern about when speaking to others. I truly ache in my heart for those who walk away from Jesus because they are told they must know the bible if they want to be a Christian. Oy! How so untrue!
Jeff wrote: Nick, now it is I who must respectfully disagree... :) I pray that this response is taken as a loving concern from one brother to another.
Oh, no need to pray about the response at all Jeff! I am perfectly fine with our mutual respect. As I have said before, God's Word is infallible, it is man who is not. If God had meant for us to perfectly understand his Word, then we would not be having this conversation. For example, He tells us to calculate the number of the beast. However, he also said it takes wisdom. Yet so many want to make you believe that they have the answer. Ever calculate the numbers on a Roulette wheel? Amazingly enough they add up to 666! Does this mean the roulette wheel is Satan? Of course not, but you will be surprised how many will run with that fact and make some sort of evil connection. Yes, we know that gambling is bad and leads to many evil things, but that has nothing to do with the wheel itself.
Jeff says: Coincidentally, I've done recent studies on ALL of these very important issues/questions and would love your take on them after you get a chance to review them.
So far as reviewing goes, I have no problem with that, provided I can make the time. I do have a hard time getting people to understand that just because God has bestowed wisdom on someone as you or me, it does not mean it takes wisdom to understand God or his Word. If this were so then all who have wisdom would be speaking the same language, but we don't. So if all those who have wisdom can not fully agree on what God is saying in the bible, then it is obvious that he never intended it to be that way (or none of us has wisdom). Of course we all agree on the one single basic, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that by accepting him into our hearts we obtain the gift of Salvation.
Jeff says: Of course, all the "surprising" answers are rooted in Scripture -- yes, even the verses that many of us don't like to think about because they convict us and make us uncomfortable.
I was convicted from the beginning even before I knew the bible. It did not take the bible to tell me I was a sinner. Thank God our Salvation is not based on having a bible or even knowing it as very few people even had access to a bible before the year 1600! Yet people still came to Jesus and were saved and lived and died without ever reading a bible and went to Paradise just as the thief on the cross did! So why do people put such a large emphasis on the bible when it comes to salvation? Yes, it is good. It has wonderful lessons and instructions for good Christian living. But again, it is not needed for Salvation which is what I am more concern about when speaking to others. I truly ache in my heart for those who walk away from Jesus because they are told they must know the bible if they want to be a Christian. Oy! How so untrue!
Part 2 follows
Jeff wrote: Nick, now it is I who must respectfully disagree... :) I pray that this response is taken as a loving concern from one brother to another.
Oh, no need to pray about the response at all Jeff! I am perfectly fine with our mutual respect. As I have said before, God's Word is infallible, it is man who is not. If God had meant for us to perfectly understand his Word, then we would not be having this conversation. For example, He tells us to calculate the number of the beast. However, he also said it takes wisdom. Yet so many want to make you believe that they have the answer. Ever calculate the numbers on a Roulette wheel? Amazingly enough they add up to 666! Does this mean the roulette wheel is Satan? Of course not, but you will be surprised how many will run with that fact and make some sort of evil connection. Yes, we know that gambling is bad and leads to many evil things, but that has nothing to do with the wheel itself.
Part 2 follows
Part 2
Jeff says: Coincidentally, I've done recent studies on ALL of these very important issues/questions and would love your take on them after you get a chance to review them.
So far as reviewing goes, I have no problem with that, provided I can make the time. I do have a hard time getting people to understand that just because God has bestowed wisdom on someone as you or me, it does not mean it takes wisdom to understand God or his Word. If this were so then all who have wisdom would be speaking the same language, but we don't. So if all those who have wisdom can not fully agree on what God is saying in the bible, then it is obvious that he never intended it to be that way (or none of us has wisdom). Of course we all agree on the one single basic, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that by accepting him into our hearts we obtain the gift of Salvation.
Jeff says: Of course, all the "surprising" answers are rooted in Scripture -- yes, even the verses that many of us don't like to think about because they convict us and make us uncomfortable.
I was convicted from the beginning even before I knew the bible. It did not take the bible to tell me I was a sinner. Thank God our Salvation is not based on having a bible or even knowing it as very few people even had access to a bible before the year 1600! Yet people still came to Jesus and were saved and lived and died without ever reading a bible and went to Paradise just as the thief on the cross did! So why do people put such a large emphasis on the bible when it comes to salvation? Yes, it is good. It has wonderful lessons and instructions for good Christian living. But again, it is not needed for Salvation which is what I am more concern about when speaking to others. I truly ache in my heart for those who walk away from Jesus because they are told they must know the bible if they want to be a Christian. Oy! How so untrue!
Jeff says: ON HOLY SPIRIT IN ONE'S LIFE: When I talked about "noticing a difference" it's based on the Word that tells us... Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Who is the 'Ye' in this scripture, and who are the 'them'? Jesus was speaking to the Jews who were around him at the time and the 'them' were the false prophets of the time he was warning them about. The false prophets were those who proclaimed to speak for God. He was saying they could identify them by their acts and deeds. Who could be these false prophets today? Those proclaiming that they have the answers or that God showed them the answers. God has come to me and He had shown me things, but he never told me to tell anyone anything. I do tell others of what happened to me that day, but not because he told me to. To be fair, he never told me NOT to convey what happened to me either. I am not a prophet, so this scripture is not talking about me. Are you a prophet? Do you never sin? If I see you do even one thing I perceive is a sin, should I assume you are not a child of God? Of course not! There are those who claim to be Christians who have a very warped sense of what sinning even is! Westboro Baptist Church is a very good example of this.
Part 3 follows
Jeff says: Coincidentally, I've done recent studies on ALL of these very important issues/questions and would love your take on them after you get a chance to review them.
So far as reviewing goes, I have no problem with that, provided I can make the time. I do have a hard time getting people to understand that just because God has bestowed wisdom on someone as you or me, it does not mean it takes wisdom to understand God or his Word. If this were so then all who have wisdom would be speaking the same language, but we don't. So if all those who have wisdom can not fully agree on what God is saying in the bible, then it is obvious that he never intended it to be that way (or none of us has wisdom). Of course we all agree on the one single basic, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that by accepting him into our hearts we obtain the gift of Salvation.
Part 3 follows
Part 3
Jeff says: Of course, all the "surprising" answers are rooted in Scripture -- yes, even the verses that many of us don't like to think about because they convict us and make us uncomfortable.
I was convicted from the beginning even before I knew the bible. It did not take the bible to tell me I was a sinner. Thank God our Salvation is not based on having a bible or even knowing it as very few people even had access to a bible before the year 1600! Yet people still came to Jesus and were saved and lived and died without ever reading a bible and went to Paradise just as the thief on the cross did! So why do people put such a large emphasis on the bible when it comes to salvation? Yes, it is good. It has wonderful lessons and instructions for good Christian living. But again, it is not needed for Salvation which is what I am more concern about when speaking to others. I truly ache in my heart for those who walk away from Jesus because they are told they must know the bible if they want to be a Christian. Oy! How so untrue!
Part 4 follows
part 4
Jeff says: ON HOLY SPIRIT IN ONE'S LIFE: When I talked about "noticing a difference" it's based on the Word that tells us... Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Who is the 'Ye' in this scripture, and who are the 'them'? Jesus was speaking to the Jews who were around him at the time and the 'them' were the false prophets of the time he was warning them about. The false prophets were those who proclaimed to speak for God. He was saying they could identify them by their acts and deeds. Who could be these false prophets today? Those proclaiming that they have the answers or that God showed them the answers. God has come to me and He had shown me things, but he never told me to tell anyone anything. I do tell others of what happened to me that day, but not because he told me to. To be fair, he never told me NOT to convey what happened to me either. I am not a prophet, so this scripture is not talking about me. Are you a prophet? Do you never sin? If I see you do even one thing I perceive is a sin, should I assume you are not a child of God? Of course not! There are those who claim to be Christians who have a very warped sense of what sinning even is! Westboro Baptist Church is a very good example of this.
part 5 follows
part 5
Jeff says: Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." I would also check out 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John, which is an instruction manual for Christian living. Helps to identify any "False Converts" out there.
How do those without a bible ever learn to live like a Christian? Do you really think without the bible one cannot live as a Christian? Does living as a Christian save you or is it believing and accepting Jesus as your Savior? About the only way I can judge if a person is not a Christian (other than obvious signs: axe murderer, Satan worshiper) is if they come out and tell me they're not. Who am I to tell you you are not a Christian based on MY perception of what a Christian should be? If you claim to me you are a Christian, and I 'think' you are doing wrong, then I will come to you and tell you. We can discuss it based on scripture, but ultimately only God will be able to say who is right and who is wrong in certain cases. I have seen this many many times between denominations to the point it makes me sad. Never should we argue over God's Word. What ever happened to Matt 7:1-7?
Jeff says: ON THE PHARISEES: "Am I A Pharisee?"
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/kingdom-bound-radio/2010/06/02/am-i-a-pharisee
Jeff adds: Quick question: Doesn't your heart break for your non-Christian and pagan friends who you know are going to Hell if they don't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior before they die? If so, then are the "seeds" you mentioned planting the kind that preach the Gospel and of their desperate need to repent of their sins?
First, too bad you don't have a transcript available instead of only audio as the audio is very iffy, and many won't hear it. As to your question, yes and no. That may seem cold at first glace, but I know those who will come to Christ will and those who don't wont. If you ask me I would of course say I feel bad for them, but all I can do is march on and hope they change their minds. To feel sorry for them denotes I've given up on them, but I haven't. It does no good to tell them because they are not going to change to please me and can't anyway, they have to want to please God. As they learn of my relationship with Jesus and what being a child of God really is, if they are willing it will happen. It is not about being in desperate need to repent of your sins, it is about wanting to knock on the door and asking to come in. The criminal on the cross simply said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom", and Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
I will add to this as time allows, so for those looking in, please be patient. If anyone has a question, please feel free to contact me at third_heaven_investigations@yahoo.com
Nick
part 5
Jeff says: Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." I would also check out 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John, which is an instruction manual for Christian living. Helps to identify any "False Converts" out there.
How do those without a bible ever learn to live like a Christian? Do you really think without the bible one cannot live as a Christian? Does living as a Christian save you or is it believing and accepting Jesus as your Savior? About the only way I can judge if a person is not a Christian (other than obvious signs: axe murderer, Satan worshiper) is if they come out and tell me they're not. Who am I to tell you you are not a Christian based on MY perception of what a Christian should be? If you claim to me you are a Christian, and I 'think' you are doing wrong, then I will come to you and tell you. We can discuss it based on scripture, but ultimately only God will be able to say who is right and who is wrong in certain cases. I have seen this many many times between denominations to the point it makes me sad. Never should we argue over God's Word. What ever happened to Matt 7:1-7?
part 6 follows
part 6
Jeff says: ON THE PHARISEES: "Am I A Pharisee?"
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/kingdom-bound-radio/2010/06/02/am-i-a-pharisee
Jeff adds: Quick question: Doesn't your heart break for your non-Christian and pagan friends who you know are going to Hell if they don't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior before they die? If so, then are the "seeds" you mentioned planting the kind that preach the Gospel and of their desperate need to repent of their sins?
First, too bad you don't have a transcript available instead of only audio as the audio is very iffy, and many won't hear it. As to your question, yes and no. That may seem cold at first glace, but I know those who will come to Christ will and those who don't wont. If you ask me I would of course say I feel bad for them, but all I can do is march on and hope they change their minds. To feel sorry for them denotes I've given up on them, but I haven't. It does no good to tell them because they are not going to change to please me and can't anyway, they have to want to please God. As they learn of my relationship with Jesus and what being a child of God really is, if they are willing it will happen. It is not about being in desperate need to repent of your sins, it is about wanting to knock on the door and asking to come in. The criminal on the cross simply said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom", and Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
I will add to this as time allows, so for those looking in, please be patient. If anyone has a question, please feel free to contact me at third_heaven_investigations@yahoo.com
Nick
Love you like a brother Jeff... that said, I listened to your taping of "Am I A Pharisee?". Nice history lesson, but I think you missed your mark completely. The saddest statement you made was 'you use scripture to know who is of God and who is not'. I thank God I do not need the bible to make that distinction! Btw, the Pharisees of yesterday are today's Rabbis.
Still, why this obsession with identifying who is and who isn't? I think you are only good at identifying those who are markedly not Christians (like Ahmadinnerjacket), not those who claim to be but aren't. But still, who cares? My concern is with helping those who say they aren't, but want to be.
Though it's true Jesus made examples of the Pharisee I see the Pharisee of today as being the preachers who sit as heads of churches like CEO's and televangelists and people tooting their own horn telling others what's it all about according to them.
Lastly, although you have nothing but good intentions with your broadcasts, you must remember that these are no more than 'your' interpretations of the bible. In a sense, it is no different than that of the dogma that different denominations push. This could be the Church of JRed. I don't mean that to sound disrespectful, I just mean when we get beyond the point of telling people about Jesus and start telling them what the bible is all about, and here is how to understand it I think we lose it. After all, it is considered the Living Word, it should speak to all who read it.
Which is another problem with the world today, people are too lazy to read and research, they'd rather have someone tell them what's it all about so they can claim it's too confusing.
Nick
sorry about the repeated postings... seems that even though I was warned my posting was too long (I didn't think they were), I kept adjusting them and it seems to have posted them anyway... if you can make sense of them and delete the repeats, feel free to do so.
Nick
Nick, my brother, I don't know where to begin.
First, thank you for taking the time to listen to some of those studies and for taking the time to write such thoughtful responses, but I'm confused (and somewhat heartbroken).
Let's get one thing straight first. This friendly disagreement is about SANCTIFICATION and not SALVATION. Furthermore, I do not believe in a "works-based" theology. However, Sanctification IS intricately linked to works, and so we must learn what God's Word says about both, right? Otherwise, if it was no big deal, then why did He include so much on the subject throughout the Bible?
My friend, how can you make statement after statement about how one doesn't need to read the Bible? No, to BECOME A CHRISTIAN THEY DON'T, but to KNOW HOW TO LIVE A CHRISTIAN LIFE THEY MOST CERTAINLY DO.
How do I get criticized for merely sharing what the Word of God says -- not my opinion -- what it actually says? You criticize me for reading the Word of God and sharing what it says with strangers when you've stated that one really doesn't need to read the Bible, or that they rely on others to read and interpret it for them? Really? For that matter, how is a literal reading of the text "my opinion" of what it says?
I'm truly sorry you feel that way, but the whole point of me doing any of this (the blogs and the podcasts) is not for any ego trip or personal gain, but for His glory and only out of a genuine, heartfelt concern for those who aren't reading His Word for themselves. Again, why wouldn't you read it when it's the holy Word of God and it reveals who God is and how He operates?
Why this "obsession" as you called it? Again, my friend, I'm obsessed with the TRUTH which hasn't been taught for decades, and which has led to too many False Converts.
Why this obsession with identifying who is and who isn't a Christian? Nick, you do know that the Bible speaks of False Converts, right? Well, that being the case, my heart is concerned for those who think they're Christians, but are sadly mistaken. Read the chilling "depart from me I never knew you!" verses from Matthew 7. Doesn't that concern you?
Besides, if it wasn't important to God then why would He include all kinds of instructions for "examining ourselves" and tell us what the Christian lifestyle looks like.
Look, I don't want to continue in a debate that could cause more division, but I once heard that anger is a sign of conviction. Yes, I'm a sinner as much as you or anyone else is, but I'm constantly preaching the Gospel (because that's EVERY CHRISTIAN'S primary task in this life based on what His Word says), and I'm constantly examining myself (because that's what EVERY CHRISTIAN is instructed to do) to make sure my walk matches my talk or else I'm a hypocrite and damaging my witness for Jesus Christ.
We may continue to disagree my brother, but I encourage you to open up that Bible despite your reservations and read His Word -- DON'T LISTEN TO MY OWN WORDS -- read His Word and see if it matches or contradicts any of what I've stated. If it has, then I will gladly admit my error and pray for the Lord's forgiveness, but if it doesn't, then you just might discover a God who is completely different from the one you've created for yourself.
Praying For The Lord's Healing Over The Relationship Between You And I,
Jeff ("JRed")
On second thought, rather than going with the previous response, I should just stick to the Word so that there are no additional charges of this being "my opinion" in the "Church of JRed" here.
Nick, my dear brother, if what you say is true, then how do you reconcile your position with these verses of Scripture?
Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
According to recent studies, only 2% of believers in America regularly share their faith with others. That means that 98% of the professing Body of Christ are lukewarm when it comes to this Great Commission. Maybe that's why we read about this haunting scene that should concern ALL OF US...
Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
I view these are the 2 most frightening verses in the entire Bible. Vast numbers of PROFESSING CHRISTIANS will fall into this category. They call Jesus "Lord", but they practice lawlessness. They profess faith in Jesus, but have no regard for the divine Law. The tell "fibs" or "white" lies, take things that belong to others, have a roaming eye for the opposite sex -- all WITHOUT guilt or remorse for these sins!
Matthew 7:26 "And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened to a foolish, which built his house upon the sand:"
False Converts. The foolish man was the one who heard (or read) the sayings of Jesus, but did not obey them. No, we're not able to live a perfect life like Jesus, but the foolish man doesn't even try! He short circuits the process of Sanctification. Most know only the "Golden Rule" and "Judge Not", and even then their understanding is darkened.
2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
Spurgeon said, "Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that." We must examine ourselves regularly so that we're not part of the great multitude who called Jesus Lord, but refused to obey Him. Again, it will be PROFESSING BELIEVERS who will hear those fearful words of Matthew 7:22-23!
More to come.
In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")
(continued from previous comment...)
Psalm 36:1-2 "The transgression of the wicked says within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. For he flatters himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful"
The greatest fault is to be conscious of none.
Psalm 37:30-31 "The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom, and his tongue talks of judgment. The law of God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide"
When we speak the Gospel, we speak the wisdom of God in Christ and of the justice of a holy God, revealed in a perfect Law.
Psalm 40:7-9 "I delight to do your will, O my God: yes, your law is within my heart. I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O Lord, you know."
When God's Law is written in our hearts, we will delight to do His will and will proclaim the good news of righteousness. We do this by preaching "the righteousness which is of the Law" (Romans 10:5). This will show men that they have sinned, and therefore need a Savior.
Romans 2:1-2 "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things."
Paul knew that the issue was the heart of man. He knew that many were only seeking to judge others based on what they were already doing, but in their heart.
John 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
Any judgment that must be done is to be conducted with no partiality and not based on tradition or mere man-made rules. All judgment must be performed and it must be performed based on the principles that are found in the Word of God. Judgment is not to be done with harshness, but in a way that shows humility as well as a true desire to follow the dictates of Scripture. If Scripture is NOT the basis for judging another, then it is wrong.
1 Corinthians 5:9-12, says rather plainly, "I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner–not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?"
Do not "keep company with anyone named a brother" who is caught up in sin! In other words, we ARE supposed to judge our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ when sin is present in their lives, but there’s a way we’re supposed to go about doing it because God intends such judgment from a fellow brother or sister in Christ for a specific purpose -- repentance and restoration.
I hope this has helped to clarify not my position, but God's position on these subjects.
In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")
One final point I forgot to address in previous comments.
You wrote...
"How do those without a Bible ever learn to live like a Christian? Do you really think without the Bible one cannot live as a Christian?"
Nick, the Bible is the best-selling book year after year. Missionaries take Bibles with them whenever they fulfill the Great Commission to peoples who have never heard it, or heard of Jesus Christ. The Bible has been translated into thousands of languages worldwide and a recent news report says that by 2025 it will have been translated into EVERY KNOWN LANGUAGE on the planet! It's even easily accessible online. For someone to claim that they "can't get access to a Bible" is pure nonsense! They don't want to get it because they know it's a MORAL book that will shine the light of truth upon the sins in their life (those that are in full view and those that are hidden).
You wrote...
"Does living as a Christian save you, or is it believing and accepting Jesus as your Savior?"
Of course, we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), and not of works. But getting saved isn't a finish line -- it's a starting gun! What I mean is that if you "get saved" but then NEVER at least attempt to submit to the process of Sanctification, then you run a serious risk of becoming one of the False Converts we read about in Matthew 7:22-23 and many other places.
You wrote...
"About the only way I can judge if a person is not a Christian (other than obvious signs: axe murderer, Satan worshiper) is if they come out and tell me they're not. Who am I to tell you you are not a Christian based on MY perception of what a Christian should be? If you claim to me you are a Christian, and I 'think' you are doing wrong, then I will come to you and tell you. We can discuss it based on scripture, but ultimately only God will be able to say who is right and who is wrong in certain cases."
That's a lie that has been preached for far too long. The "judge not" verses are the new John 3:16. Everyone knows what it says, but doesn't fully understand the context or truth it's associated with. Just do a study on all the places in the New Testament where it talks about judging each other. They is a Biblical way to make sure you EXAMINE YOURSELF first to make sure that you're not being a hypocrite and that your motives are right, and a Biblical prescription for going about the process the right way so that it encourages, lifts up, and helps lead a loved one to repentance and restoration.
Lastly, you learn to "live like a Christian" by reading God's Word and understanding that when the Holy Spirit is leading/prompting you to act a certain way, or think a certain way, about things in a manner that's consistent with what God's Word says, then you need to submit and let Him lead you. If a person didn't read (or hear) God's Word, then they would never know how to live obediently to Him, right?
This whole "debate" (which saddens me, Nick) has me thinking of 1 Corinthians 3:2 that tells us about our need to eventually "graduate" from the "spiritual milk" to the "spiritual meat".
As I said in a previous post, DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT if you truly believe it is "my opinion" or "my faulty interpretation" here. Open the Bible and read these passages for yourself and see what the Holy Spirit tells you about such things. No one is infallible especially me! Yet, I have gone to great lengths to adhere to His Word and not my own here to lovingly lead the way to the truth, and to not cause further division amongst the Body of Christ.
In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")
Truly love the dialog going on here. I will attempt to keep mine short and sweet as I know we can both be rather thorough, lol! Before we go any further allow me to straighten out one very important misunderstanding, if you will. I wholly believe in the Bible and its ability to build up one's Christian faith. I have read it through twice completely and have referenced it constantly over the years in order to substantiate what I believe. In fact, I highly recommend any Christian new or old to READ THE BIBLE!!! When I do talk Salvation, that is when I say it is not the Bible you need, it is God. My comments on those Christians who had no access to the Bible was about how that did not stop their ability to be a good Christian and go to Paradise. I never meant to imply that the Bible was not something every Christian should read if it is available to them. How certain I am that had those that did not have it available to them, had they had the opportunity to read it they would have in an instant. My whole point had to do with non-Christians. Many who I come across think that the Bible is too hard to understand and is too controversial (to them) that they tend to avoid it all together along with Christianity.
You said:
Let's get one thing straight first. This friendly disagreement is about SANCTIFICATION and not SALVATION. Furthermore, I do not believe in a "works-based" theology. However, Sanctification IS intricately linked to works, and so we must learn what God's Word says about both, right? Otherwise, if it was no big deal, then why did He include so much on the subject throughout the Bible?
I can and will agree that this discussion is about SANCTIFICATION as you said. The word sanctification as written translates to hagiasmos in the Greek. It has 5 entries (all in the NT) in the NKJV. It means: consecration, or purification, of heart and life. The word sanctify in the Greek is hagiazō has 34 entries 6 of which are in the NT. It means: to separate from profane things and dedicate to God, to cleanse externally. So one is external while the other in internal. Neither of these are qualities that have to have some sort of external sign like the color of our skin or the gait of our walk. When looking at pictures you could never tell who is sanctified. Face to face, one could only guess, but only because we assume that if you are a true Christian you would not be doing certain things like lying, cheating, telling fibs or in other words, sinning. But alas, we do. You do, and so do I. So just the act of sinning is not a sign we are not sanctified. This sanctification is what God has done to you, not what you have done to yourself. Because you are sanctified, then you should want to always do what is right, not you will always do what is right. I never said this was not a big deal, I simply meant to imply that even without the bible can we still be sanctified and are. Of course with the bible, we have instruction on what to do to, not to keep ourselves sanctified, but what being sanctified entails. We cannot be separated from God. Romans 8:28-39.
You said:
My friend, how can you make statement after statement about how one doesn't need to read the Bible? No, to BECOME A CHRISTIAN THEY DON'T, but to KNOW HOW TO LIVE A CHRISTIAN LIFE THEY MOST CERTAINLY DO.
So, by your words those who don't have access to a bible cannot live as a Christian. All those billions of people from the time of Jesus' resurrection until the time bibles were readily available, those people did not live a Christians. That is what you just said. I do not accept that. Yes, with a bible they can better understand what God would like us to do as Christians but again, the bible does not make us a Christian; it will make us a better Christian, no doubt. I never said no one needs to read the bible, I said no one needs to read the bible to be a Christian or to live as one.
More to follow:
This may be a repeat...
Truly love the dialog going on here. I will attempt to keep mine short and sweet as I know we can both be rather thorough, lol! Before we go any further allow me to straighten out one very important misunderstanding, if you will. I wholly believe in the Bible and its ability to build up one's Christian faith. I have read it through twice completely and have referenced it constantly over the years in order to substantiate what I believe. In fact, I highly recommend any Christian new or old to READ THE BIBLE!!! When I do talk Salvation, that is when I say it is not the Bible you need, it is God. My comments on those Christians who had no access to the Bible was about how that did not stop their ability to be a good Christian and go to Paradise. I never meant to imply that the Bible was not something every Christian should read if it is available to them. How certain I am that had those that did not have it available to them, had they had the opportunity to read it they would have in an instant. My whole point had to do with non-Christians. Many who I come across think that the Bible is too hard to understand and is too controversial (to them) that they tend to avoid it all together along with Christianity.
You said:
Let's get one thing straight first. This friendly disagreement is about SANCTIFICATION and not SALVATION. Furthermore, I do not believe in a "works-based" theology. However, Sanctification IS intricately linked to works, and so we must learn what God's Word says about both, right? Otherwise, if it was no big deal, then why did He include so much on the subject throughout the Bible?
I can and will agree that this discussion is about SANCTIFICATION as you said. The word sanctification as written translates to hagiasmos in the Greek. It has 5 entries (all in the NT) in the NKJV. It means: consecration, or purification, of heart and life. The word sanctify in the Greek is hagiazō has 34 entries 6 of which are in the NT. It means: to separate from profane things and dedicate to God, to cleanse externally. So one is external while the other in internal. Neither of these are qualities that have to have some sort of external sign like the color of our skin or the gait of our walk. When looking at pictures you could never tell who is sanctified. Face to face, one could only guess, but only because we assume that if you are a true Christian you would not be doing certain things like lying, cheating, telling fibs or in other words, sinning. But alas, we do. You do, and so do I. So just the act of sinning is not a sign we are not sanctified. This sanctification is what God has done to you, not what you have done to yourself. Because you are sanctified, then you should want to always do what is right, not you will always do what is right. I never said this was not a big deal, I simply meant to imply that even without the bible can we still be sanctified and are. Of course with the bible, we have instruction on what to do to, not to keep ourselves sanctified, but what being sanctified entails. We cannot be separated from God. Romans 8:28-39.
You said:
My friend, how can you make statement after statement about how one doesn't need to read the Bible? No, to BECOME A CHRISTIAN THEY DON'T, but to KNOW HOW TO LIVE A CHRISTIAN LIFE THEY MOST CERTAINLY DO.
So, by your words those who don't have access to a bible cannot live as a Christian. All those billions of people from the time of Jesus' resurrection until the time bibles were readily available, those people did not live a Christians. That is what you just said. I do not accept that. Yes, with a bible they can better understand what God would like us to do as Christians but again, the bible does not make us a Christian; it will make us a better Christian, no doubt. I never said no one needs to read the bible, I said no one needs to read the bible to be a Christian or to live as one.
More to follow:
Jeff,
Thank you so much for using a capital "B" when you refer to God's holy word - the "Bible". Jesus tells us, via the Bible, to "look up" when certain events ("signs") begin to take place (as your blog title suggests):
Luke 21:28
"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."
As a fellow watchman, the Bible is my divine source for recognizing the detailed end times' events, and without the Bible's guidance, encouragement, comfort, hope, promises (& conviction, chastisement, warnings), I can't envision trying to make any sense at all out of this messed-up world. This fallen world is not the end of the story, thankfully, and our life is described as but a "vapour":
James 4:14
"Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."
Thank God also for this Bible verse that is a stark contrast to the heartbreaking daily news items, as well as the many personal heavy burdens that can virtually suffocate our lives:
Revelation 21:4
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Thank you, Lord, for your beautiful Bible.
Jeff said:
How do I get criticized for merely sharing what the Word of God says -- not my opinion -- what it actually says? You criticize me for reading the Word of God and sharing what it says with strangers when you've stated that one really doesn't need to read the Bible, or that they rely on others to read and interpret it for them? Really? For that matter, how is a literal reading of the text "my opinion" of what it says?
No offense, but you've combined two totally different thoughts I stated. I never criticized you for sharing what the Word of God says. I apologized if that is the way it came out. I know that through your blog and radio spots you are trying to do your best to convey what the Holy Spirit is telling you and I love you for that! But, if you comment WHAT that portion of the Bible says to you and I simply do not agree I am only sharing my opinion as well. If 10 people have 10 different views of any one section of the Bible, are they all wrong, is only one right or could they all be correct? In my opinion, I can only say I pray I understand what I am reading, but I am not above admitting I could be wrong. I always say, slay me with the sword if you think I am wrong. I love intelligent exchanges of ideas.
So far as the necessity of reading the bible goes, you are either misinterpreting me or I am not being clear. I never said no one needs to read the Bible as if it were some meaningless book. If someone wants to know what God is all about and wishes to live a better Christian life, then by all means it is a fantastic book to read. As I said, I've read it twice and reference it almost everyday! Again, I was simply pointing out it is not a "mandatory" thing to do as some Christians would like to make it out to be. I am all about the Truth. The truth is, one can be and is Sanctified without ever having read the Bible.
As for your opinion or interpretation, I never said you were "wrong" I simply pointed out that your's is not the only opinion or interpretation. I never intended to make anyone think that you opinion is invalid or unworthy of exploring and discussion. Fact is, I thought that was all we were doing was exchanging ideas and thoughts.
Jeff said:
I'm truly sorry you feel that way, but the whole point of me doing any of this (the blogs and the podcasts) is not for any ego trip or personal gain, but for His glory and only out of a genuine, heartfelt concern for those who aren't reading His Word for themselves. Again, why wouldn't you read it when it's the holy Word of God and it reveals who God is and how He operates?
Jeff, I know you are not doing this for personal reasons, but because of your love for our Lord, Jesus! I must be doing a poor job of expressing myself.
Jeff said:
Why this "obsession" as you called it? Again, my friend, I'm obsessed with the TRUTH which hasn't been taught for decades, and which has led to too many False Converts.
I too am concerned for those who think they're Christians, but are sadly mistaken. But, truth be told, I cannot look at someone and judge whether or not they are a Christian. Perhaps they are a poor excuse for a Christian, but nevertheless still a Christian. There are those who believe that if you smoke or drink alcohol you surely can't be a Christian and they could not be further from the Truth.
Of course there is nothing wrong with blogging how one can test themselves using scripture to back that up. Can you tell me, exactly how do you determine who is not a Christian just by looking at them? I am not talking about obvious signs of course. Myself, I have to ask a person certain questions to make any real determinations, like: "Why do you think you are a Christian?" Then I can go from there. But I digress, this discussion is about Sanctification not Salvation which is what makes a person a Christian.
Sorry this has taken so long, but a lot was discussed.
Jeff said:
Why this obsession with identifying who is and who isn't a Christian? Nick, you do know that the Bible speaks of False Converts, right? Well, that being the case, my heart is concerned for those who think they're Christians, but are sadly mistaken. Read the chilling "depart from me I never knew you!" verses from Matthew 7. Doesn't that concern you?
I understand your concern and likewise, I am concern about those who 'think' they are going to Paradise, but won't because they never really established a personal relationship with God/Jesus. In those verses in Matt 7 is Jesus talking to fellow Jews about prophets, and even if we extend what he says to the average self-proclaimed Christian, then we must take in to account what to do to avoid being turned away: "...but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" will enter the kingdom of heaven. What is his will? That can only mean one of two things, either it means you 'believe' and 'receive', establishing a personal relationship with Jesus/God and be open to whatever he will ask of you, or... you must do every single thing the bible tells you to do. I know of no one who can do that, and of what of those who haven't read it? Are they doomed? And again that becomes work. For me, the will of God is opening yourself to allowing God to use you as he wills. Of course using the Bible we know that there are things God wants us to do and we should be trying to please God in that way. I often pray to God to give me the words or the strength to do his bidding. I fully open myself to whatever he requires of me and yes, he has had me do plenty!
In Mark 3:31 Jesus said, those who were with him were doing the will of God. What were they doing? They were worshiping Jesus, and tending to his needs. Luke 7:30 tells how the Pharisees refused to do the will of God. Those not being baptized by John were not doing the will of God. Of course this is not possible for us today as John is no longer with us. When Paul speaks of the will of God in Romans 1:10 he is speaking of what God will do to enable him to travel to Rome. It is obvious one must be fully open to the will of God and this can only be done by having a personal relationship with him. There are those who make all the motions like going to church, feeding the poor, putting money in the plate, mowing the pastors lawn, etc, etc. That just is not going to get it. They are only doing the will or direction of the denominational church they attend. That is not the will of God.
Jeff said:
Besides, if it wasn't important to God then why would He include all kinds of instructions for "examining ourselves" and tell us what the Christian lifestyle looks like.
But that was for each one of us to do to ourselves, not to each other. There are at least 4 places that speaks about examining anyone concerning their relationship with God in the NT. I find no Word of God that says we are to examine someone else to determine whether or not they are a Christian. Yes, we are to judge each other (Christians) in order to keep each other in check concerning sins, but that is not the same thing. It is only for God to judge who is 'with him' because that is of the heart and only God and God alone knows the hearts of all mankind.
more to follow...
Jeff said:
Look, I don't want to continue in a debate that could cause more division, but I once heard that anger is a sign of conviction. Yes, I'm a sinner as much as you or anyone else is, but I'm constantly preaching the Gospel (because that's EVERY CHRISTIAN'S primary task in this life based on what His Word says), and I'm constantly examining myself (because that's what EVERY CHRISTIAN is instructed to do) to make sure my walk matches my talk or else I'm a hypocrite and damaging my witness for Jesus Christ.
I'm not sure about your anger/conviction statement, but of course I would never want to cause any sort of division. I'm certainly not angry if that is what you are implying. I do agree with the rest of what you said. I try to do the same. I believe if you are truly a child of God, it comes second nature to walk the walk. But not everyone, especially non-Christians understand what a true Christian even looks or acts like. They are going by what they heard or assumed, many times based on bias descriptions like you must go to church every Sunday. Many wrongly believe a Christian would not be in a bar, drinking a beer, but getting drunk would be quite another thing.
Jeff said:
We may continue to disagree my brother, but I encourage you to open up that Bible despite your reservations and read His Word -- DON'T LISTEN TO MY OWN WORDS -- read His Word and see if it matches or contradicts any of what I've stated. If it has, then I will gladly admit my error and pray for the Lord's forgiveness, but if it doesn't, then you just might discover a God who is completely different from the one you've created for yourself.
As I said, I have absolutely no reservation about the Word of God. And I always compare what anyone says about God or the Bible with the Word of God. I know that we won't always agree with it and I am not about trying to convince you I am right or you wrong. I will say I have a different opinion and seek to understand why we differ in hopes that I either discover my error or confirm what I believe.
Jeff said:
On second thought, rather than going with the previous response, I should just stick to the Word so that there are no additional charges of this being "my opinion" in the "Church of JRed" here.
As I said, I meant no disrespect with that comment, I was trying to make a point. I have seen too many time that Pastors or preachers go from saying "this is what I think this says" to suddenly making it a factual statement. i.e. "I think that apples are orange" becomes "as I pointed out earlier, apples are oranges". I think we all do that to some extent. When it comes to my explaining the Word of God to others, I try my best to ensure myself that I understand it, but I also explain that this is how "I" understand it. Over the years, I have come to many paradigm shifts after learning such things as Jewish customs that gives better understanding to what Jesus was saying that made no sense before.
Jeff said:
Nick, my dear brother, if what you say is true, then how do you reconcile your position with these verses of Scripture?
Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Well, two thoughts here. One, is there are many who question this section of Mark 16 because scholars claim Mark 9-20 does not appear in earliest manuscripts. Second, you need to consider one, who he was addressing and two, what was said along with it. Jesus was addressing "the Eleven" and added they would "...drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." Are you also doing these things?
More to follow...
Jeff posted:
Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
So, these (false prophets) who claimed to have done great works in the name of Jesus were rejected. Or in other words, what these guys were doing (work) was not the ticket. He wants those who bare good fruit. He also called them 'evil doers'. Why? Because they did not have Jesus in their hearts. Jesus said many things in his parables such as loving your enemy. He is interested in those who have the Spirit in them and strive to be like Him. Yes, sharing your faith with others is important, but living it in your heart is more important. I know too many "Christians" who want to share their faith, but I find it tough to believe they are speaking from the heart and not from the head. Big difference.
Jeff said:
I view these are the 2 most frightening verses in the entire Bible. Vast numbers of PROFESSING CHRISTIANS will fall into this category. They call Jesus "Lord", but they practice lawlessness. They profess faith in Jesus, but have no regard for the divine Law. The tell "fibs" or "white" lies, take things that belong to others, have a roaming eye for the opposite sex -- all WITHOUT guilt or remorse for these sins!
So you think Jesus was talking about "sinning" (practicing lawlessness), not about faith producing good fruit? Or that the sins are worse if they don't include guilt or remorse? Many people have these morals and they aren't even Christians! I believe Jesus was talking about practicing what he preached, loving your neighbor as yourself, not judging one another, and so on from your heart. The false prophets weren't even sinning, they were casting out devils, and performing miracles all in Jesus' name and yet they still did not get in. Why? They weren't doing what Jesus asked, practicing their faith in Jesus in their hearts.
More to follow...
Jeff said:
Spurgeon said, "Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that." We must examine ourselves regularly so that we're not part of the great multitude who called Jesus Lord, but refused to obey Him. Again, it will be PROFESSING BELIEVERS who will hear those fearful words of Matthew 7:22-23!
I don't agree with this at all. I mean of course if a person is truly saved they would certainly wish for all to be saved. Is sinning the same as refusing to obey? I don't believe so. You sin even when you don't want to, and unconsciously sin as well. This is not the same as "purposely" refusing obeying the law. But our saving grace is not based on obeying the Law, this was the problems with the Israelis, they COULDN'T obey the Law and we continue to sin. Thank God we have Jesus as our High Priest who we can go to and confess our sins and have them absolved. In Romans 10 Paul spoke of his wish for the Israelis to be saved and said in Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who BELIEVES.
Again I ask, what of all the people who believed on Jesus, but didn't have a bible to read these things that Jesus said to obey? All this is purporting to claim that only those who have access to what Jesus said to do will be allowed into the Kingdom. Do you really believe that?? Won't a person who truly had Jesus/God/Holy Spirit in their heart already want to be doing those things even without reading it? I know I did! When I did read the bible many years after receiving Him, I recognized I did pass the test. And what exactly is a professing believer? One who confesses one's faith in God? I know many who say they believe or have faith in God or Jesus, but never took the step of accepting and receiving him in their heart. They believe just going to church and giving money is enough! Say their Hail Mary's and confess to the Priest and everything is cool. Those are the ones who will be rejected.
More to follow...
Jeff said:
When God's Law is written in our hearts, we will delight to do His will and will proclaim the good news of righteousness. We do this by preaching "the righteousness which is of the Law" (Romans 10:5). This will show men that they have sinned, and therefore need a Savior.
That was Moses description of righteousness BY THE LAW. But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. These words are more than wonderful to my ears! These words of confession and belief in your heart is what saves you, not "telling someone else". Yes, we are expected to spread the Gospel, but that is not what saves you a place in the Eternal Kingdom of God.
I wrote:
"How do those without a Bible ever learn to live like a Christian? Do you really think without the Bible one cannot live as a Christian?"
Jeff said:
Nick, the Bible is the best-selling book year after year. Missionaries take Bibles with them whenever they fulfill the Great Commission to peoples who have never heard it, or heard of Jesus Christ. The Bible has been translated into thousands of languages worldwide and a recent news report says that by 2025 it will have been translated into EVERY KNOWN LANGUAGE on the planet! It's even easily accessible online. For someone to claim that they "can't get access to a Bible" is pure nonsense! They don't want to get it because they know it's a MORAL book that will shine the light of truth upon the sins in their life (those that are in full view and those that are hidden).
You completely missed my question. "Do you think those without a bible cannot live as a Christian?" This question was based on your claim that one must follow everything that Jesus said to obey in the bible and that without a bible they won't know what to obey. That is the same as saying if you don't have a bible or never read a bible you will not go to heaven. I say that is crazy talk. Our Salvation is not based on having a bible or having ever read it. You really think that those living in the outback of Islamic Iran or Communistic China have access to the bible?? Do you not realize the vast number of people who cannot even read? What about them? If the bible is the only way to know how to obey God, they are in big trouble. Just because the bible can be translated into EVERY KNOWN LANGUAGE as you say, does not mean it will go into every persons hand. Do you not realize that a person in the deep of Islamic territory would fear to have their head chopped off or stoned to death if they were to even seek out a bible?? Just because some Missionary manages to smuggle some bibles in to a country like that does not mean it is readily available like taking a stroll down to the local book store. This naivety really surprises me coming from you.
More to follow....
Nate,
Good day to you my brother.
While I appreciate your time and thoughtful replies, I fear that we are getting sidetracked here.
This whole "debate" stemmed from my position (based on the Word of God so that it's not merely "my own opinion" or "my own interpretation") that there should be a marked difference between a Christian and a non-Christian.
1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
1 Corinthians 3:1-3 "Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?"
There it is! Again, we find this constant theme of how Christians are actually supposed to appear and act much differently than carnal man, than the world around them. That’s not my interpretation, that’s not my opinion, that’s what the Word of God says.
No, no one can live a perfect life, but that’s not what we’re even talking about here. We’re talking about how many Christians don’t even care TO TRY AND LIVE A LIFE THAT’S PLEASING TO GOD AND IN SUBMISSION TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Instead, they prefer to make Jesus their Savior, but not their Lord. They memorize and love all the verses that tell them how they’re saved and destined for eternity, but they loathe the ones that speak about pursuing holiness and righteousness once they are saved and born again.
I also think this all boils down to the issue of Sovereignty, as in the Sovereignty of God. He is Sovereign -- not man.
God Bless You,
Jeff ("JRed")
JRed,
I'm Nick, not Nate, lol. :^) Yes, we both got off track, but I cannot help it when you make statements that just do not jive with my understanding of the Word let alone when you insert transliteration errors. This is one reason I have a problem with those who insist 'their' version and understanding is the only correct one. It grieves me to hear certain churches who even go so far as to say if you don't accept the bible as they explain it, you are going to go to hell!
As I have pointed out in the past, I am studious with my bible. I don't accept any one version; I read and compare several versions especially the Greek whenever I discuss it. I also make sure I read what is happening before and after any verse someone wants to point out because it is so easy to take a single verse out of context. I do listen to those who have a different slant on the Word and re-examine it for myself. I WILL be judged by MY understanding, not what someone else believes. I believe these differences of interpretation is what stops many from coming to Christ. How I would never what to be guilty of that!
When you say: "from my position (based on the Word of God so that it's not merely "my own opinion" or "my own interpretation")", this is called double-speak. Even though it is based on the Word of God, it is STILL merely your opinion or interpretation unless the only thing you state is a direct quote, and even then it's only as good as the version you are quoting due to transliteration problems. It is just not as cut and dry as you want to make it out to be. I love you like a brother Jeff, but if you can't see that I don't know what to tell you.
The verses you quote to point to the difference between a Spirit filled Christian and non-Christian, again these are our internal characteristics, not external as if we can detect them just by looking at someone. Yes, at some point after knowing someone, you should be able to detect a difference, this I will agree to.
The verses in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 is prime example of what I have been saying. The entire chapter prior to this is talking about being Spiritually filled.
1 Corin 2:12-14 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
These Spiritual words are not the bible (the NT did not exist), but Christ within us. (Mind you, I didn't say the bible is not Holy or non-Spiritual). Paul is telling those he wrote to (BEFORE the NT was even canonized), who were Christians, that they were acting worldly by quarreling and harboring jealousy. (But yet they were still Christians). You and I both can act worldly at times as well, despite our attempts to avoid that.
When I hear "many Christians don’t even care TO TRY AND LIVE A LIFE THAT’S PLEASING TO GOD AND IN SUBMISSION TO THE HOLY SPIRIT", I can only say if that is their case, I would have to wonder if they are saved at all. When I hang out in a worldly place, some in there probably have no idea if I am a Christian, but I can tell you if we strike up a conversation it won't be long before they will know it.
I think we've kicked this dead horse enough as they say. I will close this only by saying, continue to be studious in the Word, especially the Greek. Recognize that the NT was not in existence as it played out and that a lot of what Jesus said in the "Gospels" was directed to the Jews of the time even though much of it can be applied to Christians of today.
Your Brother in Christ,
Nick
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