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March 20, 2011

God's Wrath And Bell -- Err Hell

Can I level with you? I've felt burdened the past few days. I've felt as if the time for speculating is past, and the time for reviewing the truth and only the truth is upon us.

Sure, I know all about living by faith and not feelings, but that's not really what this is. I can't quite explain it unfortunately. All I can say is that there's this uneasiness within my soul and a definite need to invest the time to read and study His Word more than I have been. Yet, even that's not entirely accurate either.

I suppose a better way to describe whatever this is would be to say that I feel an urgency to research, study, and write about repentance, obedience, and judgment. So much so, in fact, that I've put everything else on hold -- and I mean everything!

From the last minute cancellation of an end times prophecy report this week courtesy of Right Now Radio, to using every waking hour today to bury my face in my Bible and write, write, write as much as I possibly can on this important subjects, today has been an...odd day for sure.

The strangest part? None of these sentiments have been stoked by other news media outlets and/or the long list of online Christian prophetic ministries that I usually frequent because I just haven't had the time to listen to, let alone read, any of them all week long. It just is what it is. Please take that under prayerful consideration for what it's worth.

Ok, so what have I been so preoccupied with for nearly the entire day? In the aftermath of the tragedy in Japan, and in the wake of the beginning of a state of war in Libya, I keep coming back to the simple truths given to us in Scripture.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

One great thing (yes, "great") to come from the constant news about the death and destruction in Japan (and even just the mere threat of radiation making its way to the Western US) is that it forces people to come face-to-face with their own mortality.

Some might think it's morbid of me to point this out, but I hope that others see it as a compassionate gesture. We all die. Eternity is a long time. To live like we'll never die, or to act like it all doesn't matter one way or another, is a tragic state to be in.

I would argue that what we believe about what happens to us when we die determines how we live our lives while we still have them to live. Of course, God's Word gives us the answers to both this life and the life to come.

Do we know the truth though? Are we reading and studying His Word like we should? Are we ready to give an account of the truth to those who ask and challenge us about it (
2 Timothy 4:2)?

In
the previous post, we looked at what the Scriptures have to say about earthquakes and why God allows them to happen to mankind. They are more than signs. They are commentaries from Almighty God about His feelings toward our unrepentant sins.

With that in mind, this felt like a good time to revisit some surprisingly "controversial" subjects in Christian circles today:
God's wrath, Hell, and the relationship between the two.

But it's not just me! Anyone else notice a similar theme within various Christian ministries lately? Everywhere I turn lately it seems like THIS is the subject on everyone's heart and mind -- even if it's in a community and forum that I've never been to before! Might that be the Holy Spirit moving throughout the Body of Christ in preparation for what's to come? I believe it very well could be.

You know, with
Japan's devastation still weighing on us, the resulting symbolic analysis by other watchmen on the wall, and now plausible scenarios about what lies ahead for this nation (and the world) in the next several days, I'm beginning to wonder if "spiritual preparation" (a "last call" of sorts) is what's at play here after all.


WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE TELL US ABOUT GOD'S WRATH?


Let's begin with the doctrine of the wrath of God. What do we know? Well, for starters, that the Lord is a
"righteous judge" (2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 2:23; Revelation 19:11).

Charles Spurgeon summarized...

"You must have, more or less, a distinct sense of the dreadful wrath of God and of the terrors of the judgment to come, or you will lack energy in your work and so lack one of the essentials of success."

It's so much more than that though. The Scriptures tell us quite a bit about God's wrath. For some of you, this will be the uncomfortable part.

Psalm 21:9 (KJV) Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Psalm 90:7-8 (KJV) For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled. Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret [sins] in the light of thy countenance.

Psalm 89:14 (KJV) Justice and judgment [are] the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Romans 2:2-6 (KJV) But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Psalm 7:11-13 (KJV) God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day. If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready. He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

This is the message we must bring to a sinful world now more than ever. God is angry with the wicked every day. His wrath abides on them (John 3:36). Every time they sin, they are storing up for themselves wrath that will be revealed on the Day of Judgment (Romans 2:5). Unless they are convinced that there is a wrath to come, they will not flee to the One who can deliver them from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Even now, with all that's going on in the world just this last week alone, there are still people out there who assume that Heaven's silence is Heaven's sanction. The reality is that God threatens fearful wrath, then offers salvation to those who will listen. This is the Biblical order of Gospel proclamation -- Law before grace -- and it must be preached ASAP!

Obviously, the Word contains proclamation after proclamation of God's wrath. The problem is that we fail to remind ourselves that it's a righteous wrath that He exhibits.

C.S. Lewis commented on this truth when he wrote,

"When we merely say that we are bad, the 'wrath' of God seems a barbarous doctrine; as soon as we perceive our bad-ness, it appears inevitable, a mere corollary from God's goodness."

May we always perceive our "bad-ness" from now until our last dying breath.



Not to get us too sidetracked here, but whenever a discussion about the wrath of God comes up it invariably evolves into one of the most common objections: "Why does the Old Testament show a God of wrath and the New Testament a God of mercy?"

Actually, the God of the New Testament is THE SAME as the God of the Old Testament. The Bible says that He never changes. He is just as merciful in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament.

Read Nehemiah 9 for a summary of how God mercifully forgave Israel, again and again, after they repeatedly sinned and turned their back on Him. The Psalms of David often speak of God's mercy, poured out on sinners.

He is also just as wrath-filled in the New Testament as He is in the Old. He killed a husband and a wife in the Book of Acts, simply because they told one lie.

Jesus warned that He was to be feared because He has the power to cast the body and soul into Hell. The apostle Paul said that He persuaded men to come to the Savior because he knew the "terror of the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:11). Read the dreadful judgments of the New Testament's Book of Revelation. That will put the "fear of God" in you, which incidentally is "the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10).

Perhaps the most fearful display of His wrath is seen in the cross of Jesus Christ. His fury so came upon the Messiah that it seems God enshrouded the face of Jesus in darkness so that creation couldn't gaze upon His unspeakable agony.

Whether we like it or not, our God is a consuming fire of holiness (Hebrews 12:29). He isn't going to change, so we had better...before the Day of Judgment. If we repent, God, in His mercy will forgive us and grant us eternal life in Heaven with Him.

But there's one verse that sums things up quite nicely for us...

Psalm 7:11 (KJV) God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day.

The NIV clarifies the truth even further, and while I fully recognize the problems with the NIV please note that I'm merely including it here for absolutely clarity (for those who argue the KJV is
"too difficult to understand") and to simply hammer home the point: "God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day."

Though they seem like contradictions in a politically correct world like the one we live in today, this verse clearly tells us that
righteousness and wrath go hand-in-hand.

I think R.C. Sproul gave us a hint as to why we've fallen away from the truth of God's Word...

"There's probably no concept in theology more repugnant to modern America than the idea of divine wrath."

Right on cue, the apostates within Christianity gave us more reason to know (not assume, but know) that he was right because they totally reject such foundational Biblical truths. Totally.

That's because the toxic teachings of the "Emerging Church" and one of its rock star "Pastors", Rob Bell, have been compiled into a new book just released called "Love Wins", which despite it's universalist "We All Worship The Same God And God Loves All" title will only lead to apostasy, blasphemy, and heresy.

More on that in a moment. For now, I just wanted to mention it and point out how this topic was at the forefront of Christian apologetics this past week and rightfully so. More importantly, I think it's timing is providential having come on the heels of the tragedy in Japan and everything that such an event should force the world to confront about itself. That being said, let's continue by pointing out a few more things about God's wrath.

Bill Muehlenberg recently wrote an in-depth commentary on the wrath of God that served as a catalyst for this piece today. We'll continue by examining this doctrine first.

While I don't agree with all of his statements (i.e.
"or if they believe that God forces people against their will to enter into a Christless eternity, that too I reject", which is in direct contrast with sovereignty, regeneration, and Romans 3:11 assuming that's what he was writing against with that comment) I generally agree with most of them because that are rooted in Scripture...

"If their idea of the wrath of God is that God is an emotional tyrant who explodes in petty anger at every little thing, then I reject that concept as well."

"Christians readily – and rightly – leap upon John 3:16 to showcase God’s love. But the very same pericope speaks of the other side of the coin – his wrath. John 3:36 says this,
'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.'"

"People often mistakenly assume that love and wrath are opposites. They are not at all, as this passage demonstrates. If you really love someone you will hate that which harms that person. Leon Morris argues that wrath 'stands for the settled and active opposition of God’s holy nature to everything that is evil.' Indeed, 'If we abandon the idea of the wrath of God we are left with a God who is not ready to act against moral evil.'"

"Paul says much about God’s wrath. Consider Romans 1:18:
'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.' Some think this wrath just means the impersonal consequences to bad choices in a cause and effect universe, and it should not be attributed to God himself. 'But his wrath against sin is too comprehensive in Scripture to allow such a reinterpretation. It is part of his very nature – the holiness of God demands wrath against the sinner and mercy toward the repentant' (Grant Osborne in his commentary on Romans)."

"Consider also Ephesians 2:3:
'All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.' But in the very next verse Paul speaks of God’s great love and rich mercy. As Clinton Arnold states, 'This wrath in no way contradicts his love; rather, it is a manifestation of his character as holy and blameless, which is what he requires of us (1:4). It is also his necessary and appropriate response to the rebellion of his creation against him, which he will ultimately subdue (1:10).'"

"A final passage to consider is Revelation 6:15-17:
'Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?’' This text is remarkable for many reasons, but the point to emphasise is the one unleashing the wrath. Yes, the same meek and mild Jesus who we read about in the gospels is now dispensing judgment and punishment. Many forget that the Lamb of God is also the conquering King who will comes to exercise divine judgment."

"Or as G.K. Beale rightly states,
'The earth-dwellers have not trusted in the Lamb who was slain for the sin of the world (cf. 1:5; 5:9). Therefore, they will have to suffer his destructive wrath and will not be able to withstand it. The gentle Lamb who was slain on the cross is now in an exalted position over the whole cosmos (1:5; 3:21; 5:5-6) to pour out his wrath. He is not only loving to his people but also a just judge to his enemies.'"

Simply put, Muehlenberg points out how critical it is for Christians to "get it right" when it comes to knowing the truth and preaching the truth. The doctrines of Hell and God's Wrath are certainly a part of that, but far too many Christians leave them out of the discussion entirely.

You can't say
"God is love!" without also saying "God is wrathful!" The two aren't mutually exclusive; they're not polar opposites. The love of God does not make any sense without the wrath of God. Remember, it's not for nothing that the Scriptures record the "fear of God" so very often. Hopefully, that clarifies the doctrine of the wrath of God for us.

Earlier, we mentioned Rob Bell and the Emerging Church movement in Christianity today. It was good to see Dr. Mohler himself pen
a stern response to the rank apostasy originating from such people and preaching,

"If you actually read the Bible, you are going to end up having to say that this is a dishonest attempt to make the Bible say what is does not say."

That's the bottom line here. If you still doubt that such a rebuke was warranted, then please spend some time being like a Berean (Acts 17:11) and examine the evidence for yourself.

Matthew 7:15 (KJV) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Those within the Emergent Church/Liberal Christianity sects have created a mythology of Heaven and Hell and redefined what it means when the Bible speaks of God's wrath, and it's all at the front-and-center of Bell's new book too.



What's this book about? Why is it so dangerous? One religious leader has weighed in...

This brings us to the controversy over Rob Bell’s new book, Love Wins. As its cover announces, the book is "about heaven, hell, and the fate of every person who ever lived." Reading the book is a heart-breaking experience. We have read this book before. Not the exact words, and never so artfully presented, but the same book, the same argument, the same attempt to rescue Christianity from the Bible.

As a communicator, Rob Bell is a genius. He is the master of the pungent question, the turn-the-picture-upside-down story, and the personal anecdote. Like Harry Emerson Fosdick, the paladin of pulpit liberalism, Rob Bell is a master communicator. Had he set out to defend the biblical doctrine of hell, he could have done so marvelously. He would have done the church a great service. But that is not what he set out to do.

Like Fosdick, Rob Bell cares deeply for people. It comes through in his writings. There is no reason to doubt that Bell wrote this book out of his own personal concern for people who are put off by the doctrine of hell. Had that concern been turned toward a presentation of how the biblical doctrine of hell fits within the larger context of God’s love and justice and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that would have been a help to untold thousands of Christians and others seeking to understand the Christian faith. But that is not what Bell does in this new book.

Instead, Rob Bell uses his incredible power of literary skill and communication to unravel the Bible’s message and to cast doubt on its teachings.

The problem begins even with the book’s title. The message of the Gospel is not merely that love wins — it is that Jesus saves.

In fact, Bell already made an appearance in front of millions on MSNBC recently, and it highlighted why this is serious cause for concern...

MSNBC To Rob Bell: "You're Amending The Gospel So That It's Palatable!"



One blogger astutely wrote the following in response...

Whatever else one can say about generous orthodoxy, it should not include suggesting that polar opposite views about God are equally orthodox, nor that contradictory views on key Scriptures are equally plausible or possible. Rob once defined orthodoxy as like a trampoline, with some flexibility. Flexibility yes, on some things, but still definable and recognizable boundaries, especially when it comes to the issue of soteriology. Even a trampoline has boundaries and if you fall outside them you get hurt, and so do others who try and follow such an example.

Apprising Ministries added...

I showed you that at the corrupt heart of this Liberalism 2.0 is the doctrine of universalism; and the popularity of men like McLaren and Bell within mainline progressive churches is perfectly understandable because — they speak from the world, and the world listens to them (1 John 4:5).

Here’s the crux of the matter, both Brian McLaren and Rob Bell claim to be evangelical all the while espousing a newer postmodern hybrid form of progressive Christian theology that’s completely at odds with evangelicalism...

Sadly, neither Rob Bell nor Brian McLaren can even see the evangelical neighborhood from where they’ve currently drifted; and in my opinion frankly, I don’t think they even want to see it. With this all in mind, it does speak loudly against the mystical musings of Rob Bell when Word Faith universalist Carlton Pearson decides to come to his defense below with an all-out attack on Holy Scripture, which is the only way one could ever defend Rob Bell’s mythology.



I think that's entirely warranted and entirely accurate too by the way.

In fact, I'm reminded of of this...

2 Corinthians 2:17 (KJV) For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Titanium bends and twists, but it always retains its shape. That's what a Christian should be like. We bend; we are flexible on certain issues. However, we always retain our integrity. We refuse to compromise the truth of God's Word.

Sadly, that's what these Emergent types offer a heavy dose of -- compromise when it comes to the truth of God's Word. Make no mistake, the Lord will send His righteous wrath upon such as these. Thus, unless they repent of their sins in this regard, they may have a reservation for eternity in Hell.


WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE TELL US ABOUT HELL?


How many times have we heard someone say, "Hell isn't a place! This life is hell" or something to that effect? Skeptics who say this are trying to dismiss the reality of Hell. They might like to think that life as we know it couldn't get any worse (and people in Japan and Libya might feel that way right now), but the sufferings in this life will be heaven compared to the suffering in the next life -- for those who die in their sins.

This life is the closest thing to Hell that Christians will ever know, and the closest thing to Heaven that sinners will ever know unless they repent.

To warn of Hell is fearful, but it is absolutely legitimate because the Bible says that it is a fearful thing for a sinner to fall into the hands of the living God (Hebrews 10:31).

Despite the fact that the world is teetering on the precipice of the Tribulation, and the simple fact that you could die tomorrow due to causes entirely unrelated to the fulfillment of end times prophecy, apostates like "Pastor" Rob Bell are only making things worse.

When the doctrines of God's wrath and the existence of Hell aren't being ignored outright, they're being severely misinterpreted although there is an abundance of Scriptural texts that clearly define them for us.

Dr. Albert Mohler wrote two exceptional commentaries on this topic recently...

Doing Away With Hell? Part One

Doing Away With Hell? Part Two

I'm not going to try to select excerpts. Please just make the time to sit down in a quiet place today and read them both back-to-back. They go hand-in-hand with the content of today's piece.

The bottom line? "Is evangelical theology about marketing God to our contemporary culture, or is it our task to stand in continuity with orthodox biblical conviction–whatever the cost?"

Watcher's Lamp referenced Apprising Ministries, which shared this essay from Dr. John MacArthur, which I believe to be a fitting conclusion to this lengthy -- but oh so necessary -- commentary/study...

Hell is a place of unrelieved torment for both body and soul. When a nonbeliever dies, his soul leaves the presence of God, and goes into Hell. His soul probably doesn’t go into the Lake of Fire that all unbelievers will be thrown into after the Great White Throne Judgment (because a transcendent body would be required to endure the fire), but it still goes to a place of torment (as was illustrated by the rich man who died and went to Hell in Luke 16).

When an unsaved person dies, his soul descends into Hell. In the future, there will be a resurrection of the bodies of the damned, and at that time the condemned will be given a transcendent body so they can be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Christians will also be resurrected at that time, and be given a transcendent, glorified body to enable them to live eternally in Heaven. Those who are condemned to Hell will be raised and given new bodies for the sole purpose of being punished forever in those bodies (Jn. 5:25-29; Rev. 20:11-15). That’s why Jesus said, “…fear not them who kill the body…but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Mt. 10:28).

Some people think that Hell will only be experienced by the inner consciousness. But Hell will be experienced by the body, too. Transcendent, eternal bodies are going to be given to the damned; they will suffer in those bodies forever.

Please let that sink in. Please, please, please. Remember, we're on borrowed time here.

Hell is a literal place just like Heaven is a literal place.

Absolutely nothing -- I repeat, absolutely nothing -- on this earth could ever even begin to compare with Hell and the wrath of the Lord God Almighty.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (KJV) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

God's love
cannot be separated from His wrath.

Ironically, those who attempt to do so may ultimately face
the very thing that they try to teach isn't something to worry about when it comes to God and the end of a life.

I'd say that in such a case "the joke's on them", but our Lord's righteous wrath and a place in Hell for eternity is no laughing matter. Look, even
Jesus Christ Himself spoke of the reality of Hell and warned us about rejecting Him and spending eternity there.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Pray for these truths to change hearts and minds. Pray for those caught up in this vile apostasy, blasphemy, and heresy related to these end times.

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63 Comments:

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

Forgot to include this one from Mohler...

"Our responsibility is to present the truth of the Christian faith with boldness, clarity, and courage — and defending the biblical doctrine in these times will require all three of these virtues.

Hell is an assured reality, just as it is presented so clearly in the Bible. To run from this truth, to reduce the sting of sin and the threat of hell, is to pervert the Gospel and to feed on lies. Hell is not up for a vote or open for revision. Will we surrender this truth to modern skeptics?

Current controversies raise this issue anew among American Christians and even among some evangelicals. Nevertheless, there is no way to deny the Bible’s teaching on hell and remain genuinely evangelical. No doctrine stands alone."

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Mr. Bighead said...

03/17/11 6.3 quake epicentered in VANUATU region. Check out at usgs.gov. Also, check out the meaning of the names of the locations listed near the epicenter. Mind-blowing stuff straight from God!

Mr. Bighead said...

Earthquakes are a sign of birth pangs. Satan will be anounced on the world scene before Antichrist. The main symbol of Japan is a green dragon. The green dragon is a symbol of death. God may be using the earthquake in Japan to signal Satan's annunciation to the world.

Check these out for more info & symbolism:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GWYE_enUS321US322&q=etymology+of+sendai
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GWYE_enUS321US322&q=meaning+of+fukushima
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GWYE_enUS321US322&q=meaning+of+iwaki
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GWYE_enUS321US322&q=meaning+of+iwaki
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Tokyo
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GWYE_enUS321US322&q=etymology+of+koriyama

Anonymous said...

As a young person I heard a great sermon entitled, "Payday someday." It changed my life and my "thinking" forever. When the reality of the awfulness of hell truly sinks in - it changes you. I have not heard a pastor speak on the awfulness of hell since I was a little girl. Such an injustice to the unsaved.

I once heard someone tell of a dream they had whereby there was a multitude on a wide highway - up ahead he could hear people screaming for all they were worth. This person then got a "view" of what was happening up ahead. It was a great hole in the ground and when people at the front of the line saw what was ahead for them, they started to push back and try to get out of line - but it was too late. The crowd behind them pushed them forward and into the hole of hell, the abyss.

I have never been able to forget that dream. I would that people would just open their hearts and listen to truth, repent, and turn from sin. You are either "saved" or "unsaved." There is NO middle ground. You either admonish Jesus as the Son of God - the Alpha and Omega - our Savior, repent, and turn from the wickedness in your life - or the future holds an eternity of torture. May you make the right choice - NOW.

Shattered Butterfly said...

If you are in hell, you don't have everlasting life, which means you have everlasting death, which means you aren't tormented for eternity!

All who enter this lake suffer permanent death. They suffer complete destruction—a final punishment that is everlasting—eternal—permanent!

they do not burn forever.

I'm sorry Jeff, I know this post has been really on your heart.

However, there is nothing in this entire universe that would make me think of hell as a literal place of fire and torment. You either live eternally or PERISH which means you are dead, you aren't conscious, you cannot feel. If you are in hell, and you can still think and feel forever, is that not also eternal life?

This subject is a really touchy one, and I hope I don't come off condescending or anything. Just wanted to say I don't think anyone is tormented for eternity.

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

Shattered Butterfly,

You're certainly free to think that, but that doesn't make it true.

Do you have any Scripture you can point to that would refute the position of conscious, everlasting torment in Hell, and that would back up your position instead?

Friend, to say "However, there is nothing in this entire universe that would make me think of hell as a literal place of fire and torment" is concerning to me. Nothing? Really?

How about God's Word and Jesus' own words about the place and what it's like?

Matthew 3:12 and mention of "unquenchable fire" to name just one verse of many? The Lord CONSTANTLY taught about Hell. He talked about it in Matthew 23:14-15, 33; 25:29-30, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 6:24- 26; and 12:5.

In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus told a story about a rich man that died and went to Hell. The man was in such torment that he screamed for Abraham to send Lazarus with water to cool his tongue (verse 24). That sounds like conscious, on-going, eternal punishment (as opposed to a one time event that is over as quickly as it starts).

Again, I'm sorry friend, but unless you can give me supporting Scripture I have to point out that your view of Hell and what happens to sinners who end up there is merely your opinion, and not Biblical.

Based on the example of Christ, the emphasis of preaching should be on Hell. But people don’t do that today. It is convicting that we say so little about Hell. The truth about Hell is so terrifying and awesome that if the Lord had not taught about Hell, we would not believe it existed.

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

One more thing I wanted to add to help underscore the horrors of Hell. This is from the John MacArthur piece I referenced near the end of this piece...

"Hell is a place of unrelieved torment and horrible misery. The Bible defines it as outer darkness (Matthew 8:12; 22:13). It is a place of impenetrable darkness without light. Have you ever been in the darkness of night and longed for daylight, or been in a dark room and wanted light? Darkness will encompass those who will be in hell for eternity; there will be no hope of ever seeing light.

The Bible also says that Hell is a place of fire (Matthew 25:41). The fire in Hell isn’t like the fire we use to burn something. God uses the word fire to describe Hell as a place of torment -- a place where there will be no relief from suffering. God uses both darkness and fire to describe the torment of the damned.

The Bible gives us two insights into how people will respond in Hell. One is in a parable the Lord tells in Luke 16, where a man who went to Hell cried, '...Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame' (verse 24). The other is a statement Jesus frequently made, saying that in Hell 'there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28).

Hell is not going to be a place of fun; it is going to be a place of weeping, screaming, grinding of teeth, and unrelieved torment."

I hope that help clarifies the truth.

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Anonymous said...

jeff

I'm back
very well said. hell is ever lasting torment, a constant existance of the most horendous things imagined in ones mind. I believe it is given on an individual basis according to each persons own personal fears of terror.

the only escape is to come to JESUS CHRIST now while you still can.

and you are also right about the apostate liars who confess JESUS but do not know him.
if you carefuly read Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

you will see that JESUS is telling you these people are adimtting JESUS is the CHRIST, yet they teach another version or doctrine which is false and a lie!
they are not saying they are CHRIST they are saying JESUS is, it's just a false or anti-jesus.
or a feel good human jesus, mamby pamby, luke warm able to compromise,politicly correct jesus.

thats why the WORD continualy tells you GOD is the same yesterday, today and tomarrow. he does not change or compromise ever!!!

PLEASE LORD help the luke warm to become HOT!!! amen

john

Anonymous said...

Christ taught that the Kingdom of Heaven is within. What of Hell? Are both dimensions? Are true praise or obedience the door to Heaven now? Are torture or DMT gates to Hell?

We believe that the only way to God is through Christ himself. Christ taught that what happens in the spirit manifests outwardly. We're cautioned about seeds planted and what we take into our hearts. He saves us and makes us holy His own and separates us from the world.

The utimate manifestation of hell is the Lake of Fire. It begins to emerge in the end time as the abyss, like that deep ditch and witch from which all abominations come. It resonates like a boloid-strike or magma-plume breaking out with the great quaking of a super-volcano, belching out smoke as a mass extinction event.

Demons don't care, they don't die. They entertain and distract themselves in each generation with their versions of video games and movies. Their chess is played in the nations. The hell they create is exposed in Daniel and the Revelation. Rome is revived, with its northern and southern legs around the Mediterranean. The UK lion, EU leopard (Germany), and Russian bear of the King of the North (prince of Grecia) are becoming clear. The southern kingdom from Morocco to Iran are the empires of Egypt and Rome and Islam revived, headed by the King of the South (Allah/prince of Persia). Both will combat and fall to antichrist. Hell here and now is their board game. After the Millennial Kingdom and final reckoning, they and their rubble will be cast out into the Lake of Fire, the burning toxic waste dump of this creation.

But the promise of the "Our Father" prayer is "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven." Where should we dwell? In repentance and obedience and following Christ or building sand-castles and falling as fodder to the machinations of the damned? Giving birth to abominations and rotten fruit or bringing forth fruit of the Spirit that comes from dwelling with Christ as the Bride? He is the Vine, we His branches. False christians infesting the Tree of Life like mistletoe will be cut off and burned. We know them by their fruit. There will be woe, wailing, and gnashing. We've were told these things in parables and plainly many times.

Love does not abandon His children to dwell in the streets and wilds and dark of the world, molested, infested, and infected. There's a fence. The gate is salvation through Christ, after we turn to him. Then
baptism is a first step in obedience. The washing of the water of the Word cleanses us as we continue to obey His will. The Sword of the Spirit turns every which way to surgically excise and guard against compromise. We follow Him shod with peace in fellowship with the sheep of His fold. We sit at His feet girding ourselves with His truth, rather than the see-through webs of the follies of the world. Heaven is a breath away, which is our shield and tower as we pray and praise, the very incense most dear to our Almighty Father, wafting up before His throne. Where we share with Him, the righteous King, who serves His kingdom in caring, leading us in every good work, guarding us from selfishness as He wraps his arms around our hearts.

And ultimately bringing us to that place of shared counsel and judgment; where we judge ourselves and need not be judged. He directs the hosts of Heaven to war against the fallen, requiring our honorable duty to judge the world, remitting and excusing as is just, in the thrones of the court of His Kingdom - because we have formerly been victimizers and victims.

Whether dwelling in the transience and rubble of the world, or the rot and slow burn of the grave, or the eternal flame reserved for the fallen, a second inescapable death; all involve separation from God. Hell is no mystery. War is a taste of His wrath, for those that reject the protection and embrace of Christ.

Anonymous said...

Don't forget Revelation 20: 10-15

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

That couldn't be more clear. "Tormented day and night for ever and ever". Can't argue something that specific. -Sara

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

As always, good comments and participation here -- thanks everyone.

Sara, a special thank you to you for that reminder, which completely slipped my mind. Straight to the point.

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

porterboy said...

test

porterboy said...

the JESUS that i read of paid the full penalty of sin with his Death and now sit with his father. If the penalty is eternal torment then his finished work was not FINISHED because he should be still in HELL paying for my sin in a very gruesome way and everything is a LIE. In this scenario all the wicked lost will be with the savior forever in hell while the saved can watch him and all there unsaved family and friends pay for there sin forever and ever from HEAVEN where the savior of mankind is absent because he is still paying the price for us. Gods wrath and judgement is unquenchable meanin that nothing can stop it. It will come and when that work is over and justice and MERCY are distributed the unquenchable fire will go out because it is not needed anymore. Sodom and Gammorah were sent an unquenchable fire meaning unstoppable until the work was completed. Can we still see that fire today. No. God is LOVE,WRATH,JUSTICE and MERCY and all will be given out justly. I am not trying to start a new doctrine here,I am reading the word and this is what it is saying to me. The PENALTY of sin is the second DEATH, TOTAL DESTRUCTION,TOTAL SEPARATION,TOTAL DARKNESS. On JUDGEMENT DAY there will be WEEPING and GNASHING of TEETH and will seem like FOREVER as the TRUTH is PROVEN and the ENEMY of the LORD SEES FEELS and KNOWS what they have truly LOST and then TOTAL DESTRUCTION BEFALLS THEM and DEATH and HELL are cast into the lake of fire which is the SECOND DEATH 1 death or 0 deaths for the saved and 2 DEATHS for the wicked. PRAISE the 1 TRUE GOD and his SON for there JUSTICE and MERCY AMEN porterboy

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

With all due respect my friend, there's a lot of opining there without a lot of Scripture to support your stance.

I'm not trying to be combative. I'm really not. However, I am trying to apply Galatians 2:5 that says "To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you." Of course, Acts 17:11 applies here too.

One of the goals of this ministry is to encourage others (including myself) to back up any claims posted here on a particular subject (especially in the free-wheelin' Comments Section) with the appropriate verses from Scripture.

Otherwise, what happens is that we get a whole lot of something that makes us feel good because it sounds good, but a whole lot of something that's not Biblical. I'm not suggesting that you can't support your statements with Scripture, but I am going to kindly ask you to try to do so for the rest of us who my be at different stages of our spiritual growth. If you can, great! If you can't, well we know what to do with such a position on this issue.

I pray you understand where I'm coming from on this and why I'm taking this approach from now on around here.

On second thought, perhaps I'm not clear on what it is you're trying to say with your comment. That's enirely possible, which is another reason why the Scripture needs to be present to back up any statments that are offered as fact.

Thank you for your understanding.

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

Why will sinners go to Hell?

If a sinner refuses to trust in Jesus Christ when he passes through the door of death, he will perish. This isn't because he refused to trust the Savior, but because he transgressed the Law of God.

Had he "put on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 13:14), he would've been saved. However, because he refused to repent, he will suffer the full consequences of his sin.

Sin is not "failing to believe in Jesus" or "failing to hear the Gospel". Sin is "transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4).

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Anonymous said...

dear porterboy

you may not realize it but you are mistaken. JESUS payed the penalty and finished the work for those who repent, and come to HIM and beg for forgivness. for those who turn their back on HIM and rebel against HIS TRUTH there will be NO forgivness.

it is clear all through GODS word!!! so inadvertintly yes, you are supporting another doctrine, YOU need to read all of GODS WORD, and pray for understanding because you are missing a huge TRUTH of the REAL JESUS.

may GOD help you to see clearly and with out pre concieved notions planted by the adversary!!! amen

john

holy joe said...

Jeff,
The account Jesus gave in Luke 16 is not a parable. It was Jesus' testimony of an actual conversation between Abraham and the rich man. Jesus never used actual names in parables.

Jesus quotes both Abraham and the rich man.(His name is not mentioned here because it is not recorded in the Lamb's book of life but Lazaus' is.) If they didn't actually say these things Jesus would have been telling a lie.

There is deep spiritual truth revealed in this account. How did Abraham know the richman's brothers had access to the scriptures? Moses wrote the Law (the first 5 books of the O.T.) and the prophets came after him. Abraham was dead more than four hundred years BEFORE Moses was even born, yet he was aware of what Moses wrote and that God had preserved it. Just something to think about.

This account also teaches us that your soul has all the feelings that your body has. While the rich man was in torment in the FLAME he felt the heat, worried about his brothers, thirsted, feared etc. all at the same time his BODY was BURIED in the ground.

Our souls are eternal. They will live for eternity either with God or separated from Him in a place that was created for Satan and his angels. If not, Jesus paid the ultimate price for our salvation for nothing.

Blessings!

Rob said...

Jeff, If you sincerely want to know the truth about whether hell is real and eternal like I do, here is a site that has a wealth of scriptures that makes a good case that there is no hell and that the Lake of Fire is not eternal but age long. http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/2010/introduction-to-the-hell-site/

The term "hell" is not found at all in the new or the old testaments. The term hell is a mistranslation of the Greek "hades" and he Hebrew "sheol". The Lord has recently led me to a study on this subject and it just blows my mind how the church came up with the doctrine of hell to begin with. Paul and the early Christians make no mention of it. Most of the early church fathers believed in the ultimate salvation of all souls. Eternal Hell was a concept initiated by pagan Roman and Greek thought. The Bible does speak of judgment for sinners and everyone who does not accept Christ will be judged. Jesus said some would be beaten with many stripes and others would be sent to the torturers until they paid the last penny. The punishments are just and corrective and come from a Holy and just God. The "fire" in the lake of fire is not a literal fire but spiritual fire that will burn out the dross and impurities and "brimstone" is a purifying agent to cleanse the soul of man. We really need to study the original greek and hebrew meanings before we continue preaching on this subject. God bless all of you on your learning on this subject and may the Lord reveal His truth to us all, Amen.

porterboy said...

rev 2:11he who has an ear let him hear what the spirit says to the churchs. He who overcome shall by know means be harmed by the second DEATH. rev20:6 Blessed and holy is he has part in the first resurection on such the second DEATH has no POWER. rev 20:14 And DEATH and HELL were cast into the FIRE. This is the SECOND DEATH. Rev21:8But the fearful and the unbelieving and the abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars shall have there part in the LAKE that burneth with FIRE and BRIMSTONE:which is the SECOND DEATH. 1 cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those that are PERISHING,but to us who are being saved is the power of GOD. John 3:16 FOR God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son,that whoever believes in him shall not PERISH but have everlasting life. I will send more. its everywhere in plain sight if we are looking at what the word says and not what man says. In Jesus name I pray Porterboy

porterboy said...

rev:21:4 He will wipe away every tear from there eyes, Ther will be no more DEATH or mourning or crying or pain for the old order of things has passed away. Mathew 10:28 Fear not them that can kill the body but fear him that can DESTROY both BODY and SOUL in HELL. Thes 1:8and9 In Flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not GOD and obey not the GOSPEL of our lord JESUS CHRIST who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION from the presence of the lord and from the glory of his POWER. More to come I type about 4 words a minute Porterboy

Anonymous said...

Deception is rampant. Satan wants to take whomever he can with him to hell for eternity- we will continue to see and hear false teachers until Jesus comes- and see people believe the lie and fall away! Be in prayer and watchful and know the truth so that we won't be one of them.
Yes, forgiveness, repentance and holiness have been on my heart and mind the last 8 mos especially. - if we don't forgive He cannot forgive us. We must live in forgiveness and repentance of all sin. And God is coming for a church without spot or wrinkle- a holy people in love with Him.

porterboy said...

Jred I prayerfully ask you to go to www.whitehorsemedia.com hit Articles. Article section DEath and Hell. I only want the truth as do most If most are wrong in preaching Hell as everlasting torment and I say if because that is what i have been taught all my life too then we are in trouble deep, God says we cant even fathom his ways. If his JUSTICE and MERCY are to DESTROY the sinner after JUDGEMENT which is the second death and we are telling people they are going to be tormented FOREVER we are in grave error. I know this is a huge issue and you are studying it and it is weighing on your heart. Maybe I a worthless sinner who has read your site for a long time but never felt the need to comment has done so by the will of the holy spirit. Porterboy

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

Holy Joe,

Did I call Luke 16 a parable? Boy, if I did then you're right, that was completely wrong of me for all the reasons you presented there.

No, I totally agree with you and your statements here. Thank you for taking the time to post such a succinct, thoughtful, and Biblical response to this discussion.

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

Rob,

As I stated before in response to someone else, with all due respect, to suggest that Hell does not exist means you have to ignore a ton of Scripture -- especially so much that Jesus Himself said about the place! How can we reconcile such a thought with that fact?

We must start and stop with the Scriptures. Articles and commentaries on the subject can be helpful, but they should never replace (or be on par with) His holy Word.

I must say that I didn't think this was a "controversial" as some were saying, but just a few comments here in response to this study prove otherwise.

Friends, can we just start and stop with God's Word?

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Anonymous said...

concerning Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

this is a litteral truth and as with all of GODS word. there is a spiritual message you are supposed to get from it. if you can't see that, you have not heard moses or the prophets and are in the same boat as the rich man! that boat is sinking quickly so you better get off now while you still can!!!

LORD it is sad to see, but some people just plane refuse to see YOUR TRUTH. HELP them if it is in your will JESUS!!! amen

john

Anonymous said...

dear porterboy

every single verse you quoted dis- proves your theory. the verses you have quoted are speaking of those who have come to CHRIST and repented of there sins and are reborn in the SPIRIT of YESHUA JESUS our LORD and savior.

a perfect example is when JESUS dieing on the cross excepted the thief on his right, and said he would be with him in paradise. because he acknowledge CHRIST as innocent and unworthy of the punishment he recieved.
and the other he ignored, because he mocked and doubted JESUS was the CHRIST. his spirit was not of GOD.

you realy have no clue, and you need to pray for your stumbeling block to be removed from your mind!!!

GOD help him , if it is in your will!!!amen

john

Anonymous said...

JRed my brother...if I post on here or on the chat it is only because I am compelled to do so. I know what you mean about starting and stopping with the scriptures. In all truth, I don't do it for notoriety. It is all I can do to pay attention to my own life/ soul/ salvation. My position is this....if I end up in hell I'd just as soon be there alone. I will pass judgment on no one and I rely on the Holy spirit to let me know when I am in tune with the scriptures. I know there are a lot of folks out there who are worried about their own soul. I can sympathize. They will get it eventually. Thanks for allowing ALL of us to add our 2 cents worth.

Anonymous said...

I personally have a hard time deciding whether hell is eternal or hell is destroyed in the lake of fire, etc. I try to reexamine my thoughts as often as I can, as I think you do, and would just ask that you read the following with no preconceived notions.

Please read it - it is fairly short and has MANY scriptural references and tries to tie it all in together.

In my opinion, this is a pretty convincing piece, and although I'm still wavering, these conclusions seem to ring true. It discusses most of the scriptural versus that have been mentioned in this entire comment section, so please have a look.

http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/

I'd REALLY like to hear your thoughts, JRed, and where you think this person is errant. It would certainly help. :)

I'm not calling anyone here right or wrong - I really don't know, and I doubt anyone here is truly 100% certain.

John

Anonymous said...

Again, I don't claim to know the real truth, as you can see from the postings so far, people that all believe in Jesus as their Savior have differing opinions on this. I wish the discussion weren't quite so heated.

It does lead me to a question for those mentioning Satan's/demons torturing of souls for eternity:

So if you are in hell being tortured/punished...who is doing the torturing and punishing? The obvious answer of "Satan and his demons" is a tempting one, but then again, aren't they going to be thrown in the lake of fire someday? And when/if they do torture you at all, how unfair is that? THEY get to enjoy torturing YOU? THEY are part of the reason you are there! They deserve MORE punishment, if anything, not less!


I've been confused about this whole part of Hell. I mean, they would escape punishment just to torture you? I don't get it. That just doesn't ring true to me at all.

John

Rob said...

Jeff, thanks for being so gracious with your comment on my position. I know it is very controversial in the church not to believe in an eternal hell so I am prepared to receive flak from it. There are a wealth of scriptures that make a convincing case for the eventual salvation of the entire world. In the entirety of the Old Testament, hell is not mentioned at all. If an eternal hell actually existed, don't you think it would be important enough to be mentioned? In Genesis, the Lord told Adam "The day that you eat of the fruit of the tree, you will die." God did not say a word about an eternal torture chamber. In the New Testament, in the early sermons and in Acts, an eternal hell is never mentioned. In all of Paul's writings, he never once spoke of hell. "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10. (NKJV) Here Paul states that Jesus is the Savior of ALL men especially those who believe.

Anonymous said...

All this talk of torture and torment by folks who have apparently never bothered to dig into the culture, times, language of Jesus day and haven't bothered to study church history, or utilized audience relevance as a key to understanding many of the things that Jesus said to the Jews of the time to which they understood and you do not. It is most disturbing but expected of those who do not know the God who is love. Instead along with many other false presumptions made by men of flesh with carnal minds within the institutions of men you produce fear, and He who yet fears love has not been perfected in, It sickens me to the cruelty and hate that you make God into. A monster and schizophrenic at that. Pray tell the hypocrisy you assign him too as well. The very God in human flesh who said love your neighbor do good unto them, Love your enemy will turn around in the end according to the vain imaginations of men and your pagan religious views and place trillions upon trillions into some physical fire to be tortured forever, and negate his own command to us, to love our enemy and be a hypocrite and do just the opposite, Before you spout this trash about my Father, I would pray you do your homework instead of making the commands of God of none effect for the sake of the traditions of your elders so called church fathers) or men who taught no such thing for the first 500 years of the church.
So, God who is all powerful, all sovereign, and all loving will lose most all of humanity to the devil's whim and men's will.
I am afraid to say this, but your God may just be the Devil.. you yet serve.
Why don't you do a study into the words Everlasting (AION) the word hell(an anglo saxon word not even known in the Greek, find out just what these are: (Gehenna, Hadies, Sheol and Tartarus) then study the word in context of fire as shown throughout Scripture,
Instead of your literalism I pray you will come to a spiritual comprehension of the thousands of passages that speak of God's redeeming love expressed through Genesis onto Revelation as alas expressed at Calvary whereby God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself,forgiving THEM (that's the world not just you) of their trespassed. Your minds are yet darkened by the god of this world. Men's flesh!
Thus Jesus who said the Father answers all His prayers, did not, will not answer His prayer, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.! Wake up to God is love. Your hatred for others, and even for God is apparent through the lie you spread of misinterpretedd misconceived, and lack of serious study of Scripture and Church history.
I love you and He loves you, even though you may be negating the very blood of Jesus Christ that was shed for all.
I love you though you believe Adams sin is greater then the Last Adam's redemption. I love you though you believe that blinded by the god of this world, dead and sin and trespasses, you could raise yourself up to believe by your own WILL POWER?? God loves you as well, and no He won't cast you off into eternal torment ( need to look that word torment up as well) for what purpose would it even serve. Would you take your child and hold them in suffering torture forever? I dare say not, men are thrown in prison for less, these days, and so wouldn't you. You mean to tell me your justice is greater then God's. Oh! yes there is judgment but His judgments are righteous and without prejudice and full of loving kindness toward all because you see, what God wills God gets contrary to those who still think they are gods. He wills all men be saved, it will be done, simply because HE WILLS IT! There is the God of the Universe not your whimpy, fickled, evil, hating his creation, hypocritical and schizophrenic god. and you wonder why Atheist see right through you and can't see or imagine such a God. You present not the Good News but a false imagination of the fleshly hearts of men, who yet fear Him who is love!

holy joe said...

Jeff,
Thank you for keeping your mind, heart and beliefs between Genesis and Revelation.

Many of the responses to this and other topics discussed on this site are not based on what the Bible actually SAYS but on conjecture and personal feelings.

People fail to realize we are fallen creatures with wicked hearts - saved or lost. We must not trust ourselves.

The issue is final authority. We need and have been given a perfect final authority in God's preserved word NOT our opinions and feelings.

The Bible is not as hard to understand as it is to believe- sometimes.

Thanks and God bless.

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

A lot of passionate, thoughtful replies here from so many different people -- thank you. A lot of things I've wondered about at one time or another too. I will certainly prayerfully consider it all and respond in due time.

Still, I must agree with Holy Joe's last comment on this one. Far too many responses here are mere conjecture, opinion, and personal feelings, and all I see are "rants" without any references to Scripture to back any of it up.

My dear friends (at least those of you who fit this description with your comments), don't you see the problem with that?

Again, this is my primary goal with posts of this nature (and the "Apostasy?" series too) here lately -- to get us all to read and study His Word more and be as Bereans (Acts 17:11) on a regular basis rather than simply parroting things we've been taught from those false teachers ("ravenous wolves") from behind the pulpit.

Please, spend as much time to find the appropriate verses of Scripture (within context) to back up an assertion as you do just crafting a response here that is completely void of any specific mention of passages from His Word.

I hate to come across this way, but I'm still trying to keep Galatians 2:5 in mind here.

You Brother In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

Perhaps the most terrifying thing that Jesus Himself ever said about Hell was what He told the Jewish religious leaders in Matthew 23:33: "...how can ye escape the damnation of Hell?"

It seems strange for us to hear words like that coming from the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ because we don’t associate Him with Hell as often as we should.

Through His prophet John the Baptist, He said that He would come to burn the lost "with unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12). The word "unquenchable" sounds pretty "eternal" to me.

The Lord constantly taught about Hell as highlighted in a previous comment. Based on the example of Christ, the emphasis of preaching should be on Hell.

Incredibly, the worst aspect of Hell is not its terrifying description -- it is the fact that Hell will continue forever. Jesus and his Apostles plainly teach the endlessness of Hell. Jesus pronounces woes on thos who take no precautions to avoid being "thrown into eternal fire...the fire of hell" (Matthew 18:8-9).

Although the word translated "eternal" ("aionios") sometimes means "age-long", it should be rendered "eternal" when speaking of final destinies because those destinies pertain "to the final age, an age that partakes in God’s eternality."

In Mark 9 Jesus confirms that Hell never ends too. His hearers are in danger of going to Hell "where the fire never goes out...where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched'" (verses 44, 48). In this life, a fire goes out when its fuel is used up, and a maggot dies when it consumes its prey. Not so in the life to come; there fire and worm never cease. This is figurative language for the endlessness of Hell.

In the best-known passage on Hell, Jesus TWICE affirms Hell’s eternal duration. First, he expels EVILDOERS (lost, unsaved sinners) to "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). What our Lord here calls "eternal", his Apostle says involves being tormented day and night "for ever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). The language could not be clearer; Hell is endless.

Second, Jesus places the fates of the wicked and the righteous side by side: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). The parallelism makes the meaning unmistakable, doesn't it? The punishment of the ungodly and the bliss of the godly both last... forever.

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Rob said...

Jeff, you keep using the word hell as if it is the actual name or the place that Jesus was speaking of. The English word "Hell" comes from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible. The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe . The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity.

Isn't it interesting that Paul did not mention hell even once in all of His epistles? The early sermons in the book of Acts also do not have any mention of hell. If it were so important, wouldn't it be mentioned? Moses never once mentioned it either. All of the blessings and curses were for this life. The earliest Christian creeds did not have any mention of hell and the doctrine of eternal punishment was not introduced officially into the Catholic Church until around 700 AD.

Anonymous said...

jeff

I agree whole heartedly with your assesment of this comment section cocerning hell. and I am very happy to see your matureing into the mind of CHRIST!

I wonder if perhaps those who can not see the TRUTH on this subject have an underlieing issue. such as a close family member passed on without repentence or the exceptence of JESUS CHRIST? and now are in fear for that family member and their souls existance in hell? thats the only thing that makes any sence to me anyway.

DEAR GOD comfort those who grieve for their lost relatives, and giude them to YOUR LIGHT!!! if it is in YOUR will. amen

john

porterboy said...

Jesus paid the price once for all which was his innocent death. The whole of scripture points to christ and the cross. He fulfilled the law of moses and all the prophets and then went to the cross to pay the price for his sinfully wicked creation which was his death. He died innocent to pay the penalty for sin which was his DEATH. The old testament especially deuteronomy and leviticus is about the law that god made. Read the penalties of breaking the law. The most severe penalty was DEATH by stoning. GOD never told the people to torture anyone as a punishment for there sin. I am GOD I change not is what he says. The penalty of sin is DEATH before the CROSS and after the CROSS Porterboy

Anonymous said...

Jeff by the way I gave you Scripture, yet everyone jumped right over it. Will Jesus prayer of forgiveness of all men for their sin be answered by the Father or not? Will only be forgiven, did Jesus die only for a few that God chooses, It is always been easy for Calvinist who see themselves as already chosen to cast off the rest into their vain imaginations of the Creator burning His children alive no less then the children of Israel did in sacrifice to the god of Molech, wherein God said such a thing never entered HIS MIND.. Does God lie?
You desire the letter which even the Jews could not read and understand, listen to the story, read the story if you wish to take the book has a chronology of events unto the end, then let us do so..

Anonymous said...

Continued from previous, btw the emotional one, yes I like Jesus who got real emotional with the Pharisees at times, to the point of calling them snakes and all those names, I do get upset when I hear of the one I love with my all my heart and who freed me from my sins, and set me on the path of righteousness, - HIS righteousness and not that of my own, who FIRST LOVED ME is the only reason I LOVE HIM is spoken of in such disrepect of His majesty and love revealed in the full expression of Himself, Jesus our LORD and SAVIOR OF ALL MEN. Yes, Jesus is LORD!
But let us look at this literalist view and chronology of men in their view.

Revelation 22
4Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Now does the last passage of your chronolgical literalism, show these people still suffering in fire and torment, No! it says yes, they are yet outside the city. But yet alive, and yet we hear Christ saying those words,

7And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Does this sound to you as if God's grace ends with men's death?
Yes, there is judgment, and the Bible makes it very clear, Judgment begins with the household of God, have you experienced His righteous judgments upon your life?
Does it seem as if the very holiness of God is about to burn you to the ground? You know our God is a consuming fire and that Jesus said, everyone shall be baptised by the Spirit and FIRE!
Well if the fire He is speaking about the very fire of God, prepare yourself for cooking brother! The BBQ is HOT!~

Onto his judgements.. of course those judgments hurt, they hurt the flesh of men (their selfish pride and desire yet to be god by the false doctrine of Gods choosing just them or them choosing God) Either way it usurps the WILL OF GOD for all men that they be saved.
Of course that judgement hurts, deeply right to the core of your old Adamic self, but does torment you forever and ever, pray tell of for what purpose? Does He No!
He is the God who answers out to all that say, whether now or in His eternity to bring His will about, He will answer and will continue to answer every man, who shall cry out, have mercy on me a sinner! and those who shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. Yes first you die and then the judgment, are you sure this is speaking of physical death, or the second death to your flesh and self, that God must bring you to, before He can judge you at the Cross of Jesus, so that you may be brought to life in Him!

Anonymous said...

last part of Mr Anonymous the emotional guy..

oh ! yes the wrath of God those who perceive of God in that manner as of yet for their yet knowing He is there and yet who worship the creation rather then the Creator, yes it appears as wrath to them, and the chastisements of God for those who have quit worshiping men's false idea of human will over that of thier Creator, are one in the same "punishments" but they all serve one purpose to bring us to Him by the understanding of the goodness of God and His love which is everlasting,
He is not a fickled love as it is for those who believe they are the chosen,Calvinist while all others poor souls, God just chose them to be tortured forever!
Come on. Calvin proved where his doctrine came from.. He killed his best friend Severus, and at least 50 more people who would not bow to his doctrine, neither will I, for your doctrine is what is killing men even now,and keeping people in chains of darkness rather then being released by such a mighty salvation.
BTW. per your interpretation of Lazarus and the Rich Man, a parable, a part of a series of parables, if you want to take it literally, then you aren't going to be in the presence of God, or Jesus Christ, you are going to spend eternity resting on Abraham's bosom, and how rich are you by the way, I mean in comparison to the poorest of the poorest on earth right now?
Hmm.. rich people according to your doctrine, all go to eternal torment, and only the poorest of the poor get to go hang out with Abraham forever. Please!
So, I don't care to argue the LAW of the letter, for it brings no good to the listeners. For these things I speak of cannot be sliced and diced like verse and chapter, for every verse you can give I can as well, for every word you give I can give you Greek or Hebrew for as well.
So, why waste my time, with proving that doctrines of men, are useless and lack spiritual understanding. For the flesh profits NOTHING...
God bless, I will see you in eternity on the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone, for He chose us ALL IN HIM but not all is seen but it will in DUE TIME MY FRIEND.. IN DUE TIME..

Rob said...

Jeff, Paul believed in total reconciliation and that Christ actually reversed what Adam had done in the Garden of Eden. "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." Romans 5:18

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19 If all men were made sinners by Adam's unrighteous act, surely Christ's righteous act will make all men righteous.

"For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." Colossians 1:19-20 Paul here taught on the reconciliation of all things through Christ.

"that in the dispensation of the fullness of the time He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:10-12 Here Paul is stating that in the fullness of time, Christ will bring everything together and those who first trusted in Him, which means us believers who are trusting Him in this age, will be to the praise of His Glory.

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." Here Paul is teaching that Jesus is the Savior of all men which means everyone and especially of those who believe which means us. We are the firstfruits of those who believe. Later on every knee shall bow and every tongue confess God.

"Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matt. 18:32-35 Here it shows that God's punishment is punitive and not eternal, meant for a period of time to bring a soul to righteousness.

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

Two quick things come to mind right now...

> I am well aware of "Hell" taking the place of "Hades" and "Sheoul", but the use of that word doesn't mean that the place doesn't exist.

> Again, why are we so quick to rejecting what Jesus Christ Himself said about that place!?! I have yet to read a comment here that attempts to convince me and others outright that Jesus was "wrong" or "lying" or "didn't mean what He said" when He spoke of Hell so often.

> Folks, besides reading God's Word IN CONTEXT within a Book/Chapter, we also have to read it with the CULTURAL CONTEXT in mind too b/c that will also reveal so much more truth to us and emphasize/underscore what was really being preached and why.

> Speaking of "context", I'm not refuting the verses that I just saw listed here in some of the recent comments. Of course not, right? HOWEVER, for those of you who posted them to isolate them from the TOTALITY OF SCRIPTURE to make your point is wrong, I'm sorry, but it is. What I mean to say is how do you reconcile some verses with others? You can't pick-and-choose which ones to acknowledge and which ones to ignore.

> Lastly, some people continue to post lengthy replies here without referencing any Scripture at all to back up their claims. You have a right to do that, but that doesn't make you right my friend. Many of the replies sound "Biblical/Christian", but unless there are specific passages that you can cite to support your stance and refute the one presented in this post, then please refrain from posting. Look, we're living on borrowed time here people and this constant back-and-forth when I've already kindly tried to present some "ground rules" so that we can soberly discuss this issue and learn things was largely ignored.

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Anonymous said...

I'd like to thank anonymous for their thoughts. Enlightening and helpful things to think about.

I've always wondered about whether people may get a second chance, even after death, to see the error of their ways and turn to God. a) it doesn't seem "fair" to have some people in horrible situations that die before they come to know God be lost forever b) everyone is a child of God. Would you punish your child in eternal torment? Especially if they were led astray by someone wanting to do them harm?

I think those last verses in the bible...after everything has happened read much differently when reading them in this light. There it is - the Kingdom of Heaven. All saved people are inside the gates, and those that haven't turned to God on the outside looking in. But the Spirit and those inside are telling them to accept the gift and come inside.

That just rings true as what a loving God would do.

I realize you can't ignore certain verses throughout the bible that speak of things as eternal burning, but the bible also says that Sodom and Gomorrah are burning in "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) even though that is not true literally.

There are always going to be two sides to things that even Christians disagree about and both can cite chapters/verses backing up their position. Like I said above, I don't think anyone can say with 100% certainty any of these kinds of issues. We'll all know someday, but maybe the only thing to do is to focus on Jesus, your relationship to Him, and let the rest take care of itself.

JJ (previously "John", but saw another "john", so to avoid confusion...:))

Anonymous said...

Two really quick points:

1. The issue of God's Will. Is it His will that millions of babies are killed by thier own monthers? Is it God's will that children all over the world suffer and die from thirst/hunger/disease? Yes, it is God's will that all men come to Him, as stated in His Word, BUT that is a choice "all men" must make. He has given us free will to chose Him or not. I'm not saying our will is greater than His. But He allows us to make that choice, to come to Him and do His will, or follow our own fleshy devices and deny the free gift He's presented to us. "All men" is absolutely true, the gift is for "all men", but they must that CHOICE. And the Word is more than clear that MANY will chose the wide path. Our job is not to argue and fight with each other, but preach the gospel of His grace through Christ and reach as many as are heading down that wide path as possible.

2. The issue of the Word. Is God in control? If your answer is yes, then how could you possibley have the audacity to say His word is somehow wrong? Misinterpreted? I ask again, is God in control? He was more than capable of inspiring the original Hebrew and Greek, what is it that makes Him so weak to be unable to lead men's work translating His Word into English? Don't answer that, just think, is God in control? Just to make this more clear, people can twist the Word, take things completely out of context, and quote scripture day and night and be absolutely wrong. But the Word of God itself, that you cannot change. -Sara

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

Although all very good comments/questions, I worry we're getting a little sidetracked somewhat here.

In order to try and help keep us all on the same page as we continue with this discussion...


> God is sovereign -- not man (John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." / Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

> We are made for His pleasure (Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,")

> We are born good, but born sinners, and because of that God doesn't "love the sinner, but hate the sin" (Psalm 5:4-6 "For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.")

> The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God’s attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that these mercies flow out of God’s boundless love? Yet, it is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners. It must be acknowledged, however, that explaining God’s love toward the reprobate is not as simple as most modern evangelicals want to make it. Clearly there is a sense in which the psalmist’s expression, "I hate the assembly of evildoers" (Psalm 26:5) is a reflection of the mind of God… The context reveals God was speaking of a whole race of wicked people. So there is a true and real sense in which Scripture teaches that God hates the wicked.

> We are slaves to Christ. He is Lord whether we acknowledge Him as such and "make Jesus you Lord" as it's often taught today (Ephesians 6:6 "Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;")

> The Bible is literally true. It's not a Book of truths and half-truths. It's either ALL TRUE or none of it is.

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Rob said...

The following link has a wealth of historic evidence that the early Church, by and large, believed in universal salvation. Included are excerpts from writings from the original creeds. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html#5 As you study this subject, you will note that the doctrine of eternal punishment was added to the church teachings much later by pagan converts who wanted to control the people through fear. This is the way it was always done in pagan societies, especially the Roman. Of course the church became more political over time and even abolished Bible Reading. These draconian leaders eventually plunged the church into the dark ages and we still haven't recovered fully from their insidious influence.

Armageddon Thru To You said...

This is a new trend among so-called Christians that Hell either doesn't exist or is not eternal. I just had exchanges with a few on this subject on a forum called Godlike Productions, a forum that is the farthest thing from Godlike that you can imagine. It's all just another sign of how close we are to the end.


2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Chris said...

The same Greek word for Eternal is used to describe things like Hell, punishment, the fire, torment, and Life. So, if hell and the punishment therein has an end, then one must also believe that eternal life must end.

Neither will end.

For an excellent study on hell, see:

http://www.biblestudying.net/topic_cosmology.html

Rob said...

Chris, here are some things that were described as aonian (eternal) that did come to an end: The Jews have lost their excellency; Aaron and his sons have ceased from their priesthood; the mosaic system is superseded by Christianity; the Jewish temple is destroyed, and Jerusalem no longer the holy city; the servants who were to be bondmen forever, are all free from their masters; Gehazi is cured of his leprosy; the stones are removed from Jordan, and the smoke of Idumea no longer rises; the righteous do not possess the land promised them forever; some of the hills and mountains have fallen, and the tooth of Time will one day gnaw the last of them into dust; the fire has expired from the Jewish altar; Jonah has escaped his imprisonment; all these and numerous other eternal, everlasting things--things that were to last forever, and to which the various aionion words are applied--have now ended, and if these hundreds of instances must denote limited duration why should the few times in which punishments are spoken of have any other meaning? Even if endless duration were the intrinsic meaning of the word, all intelligent readers of the Bible would perceive that the word must be employed to denote limited duration in the passages above cited. And surely in the very few times in which it is connected with punishment it must have a similar meaning. For who administers this punishment? Not a monster, not an infinite devil, but a God of love and mercy; and the same common sense that would forbid us to give the word the meaning of endless duration, were that its literal meaning, when we see it applied to what we know has ended, would forbid us to give it that meaning when applied to the dealings of an Infinite Father with an erring and beloved child.

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

Maybe it's just me, but I will say that I take great offense to the statement "all intelligent readers of the Bible would perceive that the word must be employed to denote limited duration in the passages above cited" because -- once again -- it is made within a comment absolutely void of any specific references to Scripture. Sure, it mentions certain things from Scripture, but offers someone's opinion.

Why is it so hard for us to just take God's Word at its Word? Why do we insist on injecting our own explanation when His Word is clear about such things?

Furthermore, I'm still waiting for those of you who refute the doctrines of God's wrath and Hell to address Jesus Christ's own words on this subject. I haven't seen anyone tackle that yet. I wonder why.

In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

Rob said...

Jeff, I apologize for using part of the last statement that I did not agree with. "Even if endless duration were the intrinsic meaning of the word, all intelligent readers of the Bible would perceive that the word must be employed to denote limited duration in the passages above cited." In the future, I will try to be more careful in what I include in a comment. I meant no offense to you or any readers of your blog. God Bless You!

porterboy said...

JRed I have struggled for years with the word because it seems to conflict in many areas. I think we all do and that is why there is so much confusion in true lovers of our savior JESUS CHRIST. You said in an earlier comment that the word is totally literal and I have struggled with this also. This can not be. If Jesus was Talking Literally all the time then believers are cannibals that eat his flesh and drink his blood. We must hate our children and other family members. We should all be dismembered or actually dead because we are to cut off or gouge out anything that offends the Lord.These are only a couple things that are not literal but symbolic tosend a message that what he is saying is very very important to our walk with him. Are we to literally build a cross and pick it up every day and carry it. No it is symbolic of where our mind is to be focused every day. No man cometh to me except the father draw him to me. We are made for his pleasure the word says and then eph 1:5 we some are predestined to live for ever and others were predestined to burn in a torturous burning furnace for quadrillions of years which quadrillion doesnt even touch forever. Now Lazarus and the rich man. This is not literal it is a parable. Jesus started most of his parables with there was a certain.Luke 12;16 and he spoke a parable to them the ground of a certain rich man Luke13:6 he spake this parable A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vinyard Luke 14:16 then he said a certain man made a great supper and bade many Luke 15:11 and he said a certain man had 2 sons Luke 16:1 and he said there was a certain rich man which had a steward Luke 16:19 there was a certain rich man which was clothed in fine linen Luke 19:12he said acertain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return Luke20:9 then he spoke this parable a certain man planted a vinyard and let it forth to husbandmen All in Luke all are parables. Now can anyone who is burning in torment have a conversation Luke 16:22 the beggar died and was carried INTO Abrahams bosom,is he in his chest The rich man is in HELL but still has his physical body fo he lifts up his eyes and begs for water for his tongue. Next Luke16:23 can the lost and the saved literally see and talk to each other. Would heaven be enjoyed if the people we loves sons daugter parents were being tortured before our eyes. That is a horrible thought.I bring all this up in LOVE. We need to pray like never before for the truth. I have more to say but this post is long enough. JRed you dont have to post anything I send you if you dont want to. I send it to you personally with LOVE to do with what you think best All I ask is that you read them and pray over them for they are very important. Porterboy

porterboy said...

Here I go again. I hope that my grammar and structure doesnt offend anyone. I am not schooled very well that way. Jred I say this with love but i disagree with what you said in one of your latest posts that we should be preaching the consequences of hell as a priority. The scripture tells me there is 1 priority CHRIST CRUCIFIED. 1cor1:23 But we preach CHRIST CRUCIFIED unto the jews a stumbling block and the greeks foolishness. 1cor2:2 For I determined not to know ANYTHING among you,save CHRIST JESUS and him CRUCIFIED. Galatians 6:14 May I never BOAST except in the CROSS of our Lord Jesus Christ which the world has been crucified unto me and I to the world. 1cor1:18 For the preaching of the CROSS is to them that PERISH foolishness but unto us which are saved it is the POWER OF GOD. JESUS and the CROSS are the POWER of GOD. Do we hear that.The whole of scripture points to that day when innocence was tortured and killed so that we could live through him. It is FINISHED. If that message is not the one and only priority then we preach in vain. Galatians 1:8 But though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than that which we have preached to you let him be accursed. We are to preach the GOOD NEWS of the GOSPEL which is CHRIST CRUCIFIED. porterboy

porterboy said...

The soul that sinneth is mentioned twice in this context. Both are in Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20 18:4 Behold all SOULS are mine as the soul of the father so also the soul of the son is mine the soul that sinneth it shall DIE. 18:20 The SOUL that sinneth it shall DIE please read a few verses it is to long to put here. Did you know that HELL is mentioned 54 times in all of scripture. 31 times in the old testament and not once does it tell the reader that they will be tortured in hell forever for there sin not ONCE. If you go to biblegateway.com you can bring up the word hell and it will give you every instance where it is used which you can read in about 4 minutes because they are 1 to 2 word sentences that never mention everlasting punishment. Not ONCE. Did tou Know that HELL is only mentioned 1 time in all the books of the LAW of Moses for Gods people to live by. Here it is Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger,and shall burn unto the lowest HELL and shall CONSUME the earth with her increase and set fire on the foundations of the mountains. Thats it thats all God told them in the books of the LAW which GOD gave to Moses. Now type in keyword DEATH and you get 346 times almost 1 for every day of the year. From Exodus to the end of deuteronomy DEATH is mentioned 54 times. Please read them all and pray on them. Listen to God who does not change Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,that I have set before you LIFE and DEATH,BLESSING and CURSING:therefore choose LIFE that you and YOUR SEED shall LIVE. Deut30:15 See I have set before you this day LIFE and GOOD,and DEATH and EVIL. LIFE and DEATH what a WONDERFUL MERCIFUL JUST SAVIOR I have. JESUS DIED so that I could LIVE or DIE. It is that simple!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LIVE or DIE BLESSED or CURSED porterboy

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

My friend, I think it's quite telling that you continue to refute MY WORDS as opposed to God's Word/Jesus' words. Why is that? If you want to specifically take issue with anything I wrote then I challenge you to do so by showing me how you refute (a.k.a. ignore) the passages cited let alone Jesus Christ's own words on this subject. That's all I've ever encouraged here.

Only in this day and age can a Christian state that "the Bible is literally true" and other Christians take it as an opportunity to define what a parable is. Seriously? This is just so sad to me. Lord, please have mercy on me and forgive me for the anger that's rising up in my heart right now!

Why do we insist on getting so sidetracked from the important issue here? No one needs to be lectured on what a parable is, or the fact that there were Jewish idioms used throughout the Scriptures. We just need to learn how to read the Word IN CONTEXT and within the TOTALITY OF SCRIPTURE.

And, yes, "Christ crucified" is the primary truth to preach, I agree. But what you're missing is that the two are intertwined. We preach "Christ crucified" why? To save sinners from death because "the wages of sin is death", right? Why would anyone want a "Savior" unless they know what it is they need to be saved from? What do they need to be saved from? Hell. How about God's Word and Jesus' own words about the place and what it's like? Matthew 3:12 and mention of "unquenchable fire" to name just one verse of many? The Lord CONSTANTLY taught about Hell. He talked about it in Matthew 23:14-15, 33; 25:29-30, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 6:24- 26; and 12:5.

By the way, the specific quote you're referring to that I wrote is "The Bible is literally true. It's not a Book of truths and half-truths. It's either ALL TRUE or none of it is." Far different from how you characterized it I'd say.

I really don't know what else to say about this right now that I haven't already. Pray for me if you disagree with relaying this message because I'll certainly be praying for you.

Broken Hearted Brother In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

porterboy said...

Word study WRATH Biblegateway lists wrath 197 times 151 in the old and 46 in the new. Does his wrath exist. It sure does but not once in scripture is wrath mentioned in the same sentence as everlasting torment. Out of the 197 times it is mentioned only 23 times does it mention the judgement with it. Here they are bare with me please a lot of typing for someone who barely can. Here we go.2chron12:7 They have humbled themselves therefore I shall not DESTROY them,but i will grant them some deliverance and my WRATH shall not be poured out upon Israel. 2chron12:12 And when he humbled himself the WRATH of the lord turned from him that he would not DESTROY him altogether. Ezra 5:12 But after that our fathers had provoked the GOD of heaven unto WRATH he gave them over to the hand of Nebuchadnezer the king of Babylon who DESTROYED this house and carried the people away into Babylon. Ester 7:10 So they HANGED Hamon on the Gallows and the KINGS WRATH was PACIFIED.Job21:20 His eyes shall see his DESTRUCTION and he shall drink of the WRATH of the almighty. Job21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of DESTRUCTION they shall be brought forth to the WRATH of GOD. Psalm2:12 Kiss the son lest he be angry and you PERISH from the way when his WRATH is kindled but a little. Psalm 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger,the lord shall swallow them up in his WRATH, and the fire shall DEVOUR them. Psalm59:13 CONSUME them in WRATH, CONSUME them so they may not BE. Psalm 78:38 But he being full of COMPASSION,forgave there iniquity and DESTROYED them not;yea many a time turned he his ANGER away and did not stir up all his WRATH. Psalm90:7 For we are CONSUMED by thine ANGER,and by WRATH are we troubled. Psalm106:23 Therefore he said he would DESTROY them,had not Moses his cosen stood in the breach,to turn away his WRATH,lest he should DESTROY them. Prov11:4 Riches profit not in the day of WRATH,but righteousness delivers from DEATH. Prov16:14 The WRATH of a king is as messengers of DEATH. Isia13:9 Behold the day of the lord cometh,cruel both with WRATH and fierce anger,to lay the land DESOLATE;and he shall DESTROY the sinners thereof out of it. Ezeq21:31 I will blow against you in the fire of my WRATH,and deliver you into the hands of brutish men,and skilful to DESTROY.Eze22:21 I will gather you and blow upon you in the fire of my WRATH and you sshall be MELTED in the midst thereof. Eze22:31 I have CONSUMED them with the fire of my WRATH. Romans 9:22 what if GOD willing to show his WRATH,and to make his POWER known,endured with much longsuffering the vessels of WRATH fitted for DESTRUCTION. Rev6:17 For the great day of his WRATH has come and who shall be able to STAND. Rev11:18 And the nations were angry,and thy WRATH is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be JUDGED,and thou should give reward to your servants the prophets and the saints and them that fear thy name small and great;and shouldest DESTROY them which DESTROY the earth. Rev14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH of GOD which is poured out without mixture int the cup of his indignation;and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the angels and the presence of the LAMB. Thats all of them. In every case where judgement is mentioned with WRATH it is accompanied with DESTROY,DESTRUCTION or PERISH,never once with eternal FIERY TORTURE. TORMENT is mentioned once with WRATH and is temporal until they die. GODS WRATH is REAL and TERRIBLE. His WRATH DESTROYS all that is not covered by the BLOOD of the LAMB JESUS CHRIST and his CROSS AMEN porterboy

Chris said...

Yes Rob, would you kindly post the Scripture references so we can check up Berean style?

Chris said...

Yes please Rob,

Would you do us the kindness of providing some Scripture references so we can check them out, Berean style?

Jeffrey K Radt ("JRed") said...

What were Jesus' first words during His earthly ministry?

"Repent!"

Not "repent later (after you've died in your sins and you're in Hell and you get a second chance to do so)", but "repent now (so you don't die in your sins and end up in Hell upon death)"

We don't need to know how many times a particular word shows up in a certain translation. I hate to sound so dismissing of things here, but we're making this way too complicated folks.

What we need to know is what Jesus Christ Himself said and taught about this doctrine. It's really that simple. Again, I believe the fact that no one wants to address/tackle Jesus' words on this subject is quite telling.

Why do Christians have such a problem with eternal torment in Hell? Aren't "they" supposed to be "saved by grace through faith" and therefore immune to worrying about it? I think the answer(s) to that first question will explain all we need to know as to why there's a controversy over this doctrine these days when none should exist.

Broken Hearted Brother In Christ,
Jeff ("JRed")

porterboy said...

Jred i am sorry if I am causing any distress in your walk with the LORD. I pray for us all that we may see his word as he meant it and not how we interpret it. You said in your last post that I will not quote the words of JESUS. JESUS is the WORD from the foundation of the world. Every scripture I gave you are the words of JESUS. Please read those scriptures again with that in mind. porterboy

Rob said...

Here are some verses that will help us further in this study:

Sodom’s fiery judgment is “eternal” (Jude 7)—until—God “will restore the fortunes of Sodom” (Ez. 16:53-55);

· Israel’s “affliction is incurable” (Jer. 30:12)—until—the Lord “will restore health” and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17);

· The sin of Samaria “is incurable” (Mic. 1:9)—until—the Lord “will restore . . . the fortunes of Samaria.” (Ez. 16:53);

· Ammon is to become a “wasteland forever” and “rise no more” (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will “restore the fortunes of the Ammonites” (Jer. 49:6);

· An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation “forever”—until—the tenth gener-ation (Deut. 23:3);

· Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were “everlasting”, that is—until—they “were shattered” (Hab. 3:6);

· The fire for Israel’s sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be “perpetual”—until—Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13);

· God’s waves of wrath roll over Jonah “forever”—until—the Lord delivers him from the large fish’s belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17);

· Egypt and Elam will “rise no more” (Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will “restore the fortunes of Egypt” (Ez. 29:14) and “restore the fortunes of Elam” (Jer. 49:39).

· “Moab is destroyed” (Jer. 48:4,42)—until—the Lord “will restore the fortunes of Moab” (Jer. 48:47);
(continued)

Rob said...

· Israel’s judgment lasts “forever”—until—the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

· So, narrow is the way to life and few find it—until—Christ and His church confiscate the “strong man’s” booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28);

· God is now calling out “a people for His name”—an “elect” or chosen priesthood people who will represent and reflect His loving nature. Many are called and few are chosen—until—the small chosen priesthood people, by the Spirit, restore “David’s tabernacle” so ALL mankind may inquire of the Lord. Thus we see that the church is the first born, the beginning—until—in all (later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will have supremacy (Amos 9:11-12, Matt. 22:14, Acts 15:14-18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1:18).

· All manner of sin will be forgiven in this age as well as in the age (not eternity) to come, except blasphemy against God’s Spirit—until—such blasphemy finds pardon in the fullness of the times (or ages) when God unites all in Christ. For the Lord does not retain His anger forever because He delights in mercy (Matt. 12:32; 18:11,21-22, Eph. 1:9-11, Rev. 4:11; 5:13, Mic. 7:18-20).

· God’s wrath has come upon Israel “to the uttermost”
(1 Thess. 2:16). So there is a gulf between “the rich man in purple” (Royal Covenant “Son”, Israel) and the saved gentiles (Lazarus) which no man can cross—until—Christ Himself crosses it to bring His promised restoration. For again, Scripture promises that ALL Israel will be saved (Jer. 50:5, Luke 16:19-26, John 12:32, Romans 11:26-29).

· Christ’s fallen apostle, Judas, will be restored just as surely as fallen Israel (of which he is a member) will be restored. For the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable, and He has purposed to unite all in Christ. For Scripture assures us that He who calls us is “faithful”. He will surely perform it. So Judas is lost—until—the Lord restores Him (John 15:16, 1 Thess. 5:24).
(continued)

Rob said...

· So, Christ will say to unrighteous nations, “Depart from Me into ‘everlasting’ fire.” And these nations will go away into “everlasting” (original language: age-lasting) punishment or pruning.8 That is—until—by God’s severe mercy shown in judgment, all nations He has made glorify and worship Him. Thus God will fulfill His covenant with Abraham that in Christ all the families of ALL the nations will be BLESSED (Gen. 12:3, Ps. 62:12, 67:4, 86:9, Matt. 25:41,46). For according to Paul (Gal. 3:8), God’s covenant with Abraham means that ALL will be justified and set right with God. So all flesh will bless His name forever and ever (Ps. 145:21).

Therefore, ALL scriptural references that speak of everlasting fire or judgment must be understood in light of God’s (Love’s) clearly expressed heart, promise, desire, purpose and will. They are “everlasting”; that is, they are continuous and on-going—until—God’s judgments serve to accomplish His unchanging will and purpose to unite all creation in Christ. (Gen. 12:3, Romans 4:13, Heb. 6:17).

Gehenna’s fires are not quenched and its worm does not die—until—the restoration of all things which has been spoken of by all God’s holy prophets (Christ included) since the world began. For our Savior did not come to contradict His own prophets. Our Good Shepherd and Faithful Deliverer came to fulfill the law and the prophets! Thus our Lord does not cast off forever (Lam. 3:31-32, Heb. 13:8). He who taught us to forgive and bless our enemies will surely do the same for His. For every tongue will give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. All flesh will bless His name forever and ever! For our Lord will not fail or become discouraged until He fulfills all of God’s purpose, word and will. For He tells us that everyone will be “seasoned” with fire (Matt. 5:17, Mark 9:42-49, Acts 3:21).

Those who disobey the gospel and persecute Christians will be repaid with “everlasting” (that is, continuous) tribulation, destruction and punishment—until—by such persistent correction God shows them their need for Christ. So what is written in the prophets will come to pass, that all shall be taught of God, and everyone who has heard and learned from the Father (eventually) comes to Christ. Thus, all the families of the nations will remember Him and worship before Him. And all will submit to Him and sing His praise. So God’s promise will be fulfilled that ALL men shall reverence Him, proclaim His works, and wisely consider His doing (Ps. 22:27-28, 64:4-5, 64:9, 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

Paul the apostle understood the “forever until” principle at work in God’s redemptive judgments. He knew the heart of God, and Paul also knew God’s will, purpose and plan. His knowledge of God’s character, will and purpose governed his understanding of Scripture. That is why Paul could appear to contradict the prophet David! Have a look at Romans 11:9-12 (NIV), where David prophesies:

May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution to them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see and their backs be bent forever.

And observe how Paul responds:

Again I ask: Did they (Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the gentiles (pagans, all who are spiritually unenlightened) to make Israel envious. For if their transgression means RICHES for the WORLD, and their loss means riches for the gentiles—how much greater riches will their (Israel’s) fullness bring?

Wow . . . ! In the next three verses Paul assures us:

· that Israel’s fall is the reconciliation of the world;

· that Israel’s fall will be (for them and all the world) life from the dead! (Ez. 37);

· that because the FIRST fruit (Israel) is holy, the whole world (“lump” or “harvest field”) is holy.

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